BBI Politics, objectively

[zapp_brannigan]

I suspect the central government will devolve more functions

And there my friend is where we will experience the worst service delivery in most counties .Some Governor's seem to lose their thinking caps after being elected .During Kabogos tenure parking attendants had a small machine where after you pay you get a receipt .When Waititu took over he scrapped the system and introduced MPESA system and the fee was revised from 60 to 100 .This system means you must have MPESA funds otherwise the attendants will ensure you pay in cash ( money goes into their pockets) and if you insist you want to find MPESA agent to topup your MPESA account you will come back and find clamps .
Most counties are money pits .Look at the vast Juja area , the place has many quarries that earn the county cess but the road network which requires just the readily available quarry chips are in pathetic state .

 

[AU5]

By definition marginalisation is treatment of a person, group, or concept as insignificant or peripheral.
His region gets less funds per person since they are considered to be well off, I can give you an example, a factory worker in Athi river, machakos county earning 18k is considered richer than a pastoralist in Marsabit County who owns 200 camels, 400 heads of cattle, and 3000 goats/sheep. While his salary and spending is taxed and goes directly to the consolidated fund which shall be shared by all counties in the republic, the pastoralist on the other hand only pays market cess(rarely) when he sells his livestock 50 bob for a goat, a 100 for a cattle and 200 for the camel which is retained by his county.
When it comes to gains from the state funding: the pastoralist gets the cream. His ward has 24 thousand residents, to the factory workers 84 thousands, the pastoralist get an additional equalisation fund up and above that of the factory worker; this is because the factory worker lives in a 'rich' county with tarmac, piped water, and electricity.

Bursary allocation in Athi river is 5000 from the county and 7000 from NG-CDF, while the pastoralist gets 15,000 from the county and 24 thousand from the NG-CDF.

According to you, who is being marginalized by the current system? And who is more 'richer' than the other? We all live in a poor country, yet some are considered more deserving beneficiaries from the national financial kitty than others.
The only negative thing about BBI is the proposal to add more people to the executive, people who think Kenyans pay taxes so that they can spend money hiring choppers and getting car grants.

Critical thinking onge. How many kids are in Athi river and how many are in the Pastoralist communities?

Hao Pastrolists even if you halve their current allocation and increase Athi river's allocation by 50% bado their kids will get more money than those in Athi River

 

[zapp_brannigan]

let's abolish CDF and have an Education Bursary fund,

Brilliant idea , I am sure this doesn't require constitutional amendment.

 

[zapp_brannigan]

Fellow Listers , please allow me to pin this thread as we discuss it in depth
It's a superb thread .
cc @AU5 , @Meria ,@The.Black.Templar ,@DESTRO @admin

 

[Meria]

Fellow Listers , please allow me to pin this thread as we discuss it in depth
It's a superb thread .
cc @AU5 , @Meria ,@The.Black.Templar ,@DESTRO @admin

sawa

 

[bigDog]

Fine!

1. The prime minister and his two deputies are both presidential appointees meaning they are accountable to the president and can be sacked at the presidents volition.
2. Increasing parliamentary seats and specifically through nomination means that the government's agenda will pass uncontested because they carry the numbers.
3. The Judicial Ombudsman is also a presidential appointment meaning that the Judiciary will lose its independence completely and be beholden to the whims of the executive.
4. It has been proposed that the Cabinet Secretaries should be drawn from MPs which again means that they are only accountable to parliament itself where the government has total majority.

So, how do you expect an executive that basically controls every arm of government check itself?

Also, apart from getting more representation in Mount Kenya and getting more money, kindly list at least 3 other reasons you support BBI to match my list here.

1. The president can only delegate the power that he has. He won't be more powerful vs other state organs.

2. The purpose of an election is to have a majority rule. Some countries achieve it via party lists.

Party-list proportional representation - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

3. The purpose of the Ombudsman is to hear and act on cases of misconduct in the judiciary. How does that erode the judicial independence given that this office will still need to bring it's case before the JSC.

What is in the Open is that the legal profession wants to have full control of the judiciary to the detriment of the rest of the society. They have resisted automation and simplification of laws simply because it makes them remain relevant. How many cases have they filed opposing automation of the land registries?

4. I have reservations about cabinet ministers being also MPs. There is a direct conflict of interests there. I agree with you on that. Any MP nominated to a cabinet position should automatically lose any voting right in parliament, which will disenfranchise his voters.

I think the opposing camp is using the three additional offices as a straw man. I believe widening regional representation at the senior most level in government will enable creation of a more ethnically diverse government at the national level. This should reduce inter tribal competition and encourage cooperation.

On the other hand, delegating more power to the counties will weaken the central government and make it less appealing for cut throat competition.

I do not believe that legislators should be running their own funds, that's the responsibility of the executive. CDF and the proposed word development fund should not exist.

 

[bigDog]

And there my friend is where we will experience the worst service delivery in most counties .Some Governor's seem to lose their thinking caps after being elected .During Kabogos tenure parking attendants had a small machine where after you pay you get a receipt .When Waititu took over he scrapped the system and introduced MPESA system and the fee was revised from 60 to 100 .This system means you must have MPESA funds otherwise the attendants will ensure you pay in cash ( money goes into their pockets) and if you insist you want to find MPESA agent to topup your MPESA account you will come back and find clamps .
Most counties are money pits .Look at the vast Juja area , the place has many quarries that earn the county cess but the road network which requires just the readily available quarry chips are in pathetic state .

I agree we have a lot of inefficiencies and lack of expertise at the local level. But we have to start from somewhere. When I complain about a local road to my MCA, or governor I'm likely to be heard. Fancy getting access to the local MP or the president regarding "national government funds". Ngumu Sana.

 

[Denis Young]

I think the opposing camp is using the three additional offices as a straw man. I believe widening regional representation at the senior most level in government will enable creation of a more ethnically diverse government at the national level. This should reduce inter tribal competition and encourage cooperation.

How can you say this ^ and then say this down here?

On the other hand, delegating more power to the counties will weaken the central government and make it less appealing for cut throat competition.

The reason county governments were created is to bring services closer to the people. If the government actually devolved all the functions required by the constitution down to the county governments, we wouldn't be talking about 15% or 35%.

You need not care what tribe the president is because the county governments is where it will be at.

We are trying to get away from politics of tribal kingpins but you want to build it into the constitution?

To hell with that!

3. The purpose of the Ombudsman is to hear and act on cases of misconduct in the judiciary. How does that erode the judicial independence given that this office will still need to bring it's case before the JSC.

Finally, I will comment on this last because you are just ignoring all my points about the executive interfering in independent institutions.

What is to stop the executive from removing, pressuring/threatening a 'hostile' judge using the Ombudsman?

If the same executive ignores court orders now, what about then?

If you are happy with the executive having that much power over the other two arms of government and see no problem with it, then it is pointless to even engage in this debate.

 

[Mwalimu-G]

Comic relief...

 

[Clemens]

Critical thinking onge. How many kids are in Athi river and how many are in the Pastoralist communities?

Hao Pastrolists even if you halve their current allocation and increase Athi river's allocation by 50% bado their kids will get more money than those in Athi River

Typical nitpicking by a "supposedly 'critical thinker" specialist' you ignored the narrative of household wealth visavis contribution to the consolidated fund, I know that's not your forte, but please think and ingest before criticising. We are equal before the law, equality should extend to other sectors, our current viewpoint is biased against factory workers and farmers, something I know you can't relate to.

 

[bigDog]

How can you say this ^ and then say this down here?



The reason county governments were created is to bring services closer to the people. If the government actually devolved all the functions required by the constitution down to the county governments, we wouldn't be talking about 15% or 35%.

You need not care what tribe the president is because the county governments is where it will be at.

We are trying to get away from politics of tribal kingpins but you want to build it into the constitution?

To hell with that!



Finally, I will comment on this last because you are just ignoring all my points about the executive interfering in independent institutions.

What is to stop the executive from removing, pressuring/threatening a 'hostile' judge using the Ombudsman?

If the same executive ignores court orders now, what about then?

If you are happy with the executive having that much power over the other two arms of government and see no problem with it, then it is pointless to even engage in this debate.

We cannot have more devolution without more equitable distribution of resources. The best way forward is to take care of every citizen in equitable and justifiable way.

Ombudsman:. This office is not a direct threat to the judiciary in the sense of judges being singled out for their judgements. Every judge has an immunity from prosecution while carrying out his job. That is not being taken away! In any case, an unfair decision by JSC can be appealed.

The problem with the judiciary is that the executive /and parliament will have one additional appointee to the JSC. That will dilute the power of the legal fraternity in the judiciary.

Are we talking chief?

 

[Ngimanene na Muchere]

Someone, somebody please please explain to me how central govt will operate with 65% of revenue collection? @bigDog says it'll be proportional with revenue collection, explain how this will be?

 

[Ngimanene na Muchere]

And with that note IMF is back with austerity measures for their 200B loan, somebody, anyone please elaborate how the 35/65% allocation will be possible. No one ever answers this, not even Yattani himself, all he says is that it's possible without the details and we all know, that is where the devil is

 

[Montecarlo]

Popularity politics VS Real Politics

 

[Ngimanene na Muchere]

Popularity politics VS Real Politics

The biggest carrot that BBI dangles is 35% to counties that is regurgitated by all and sundry who support it but when the questions are asked about how it'll be implemented and it's practicality, these are left blank by even the CS Treasury himself. Why? Why don't they want to talk details? @Clemens @bigDog you know how govt will go about this while they are busy kicking down the debt repayment can down the road citing Covid?

 

[mr ShairMan]

The biggest carrot that BBI dangles is 35% to counties that is regurgitated by all and sundry who support it but when the questions are asked about how it'll be implemented and it's practicality, these are left blank by even the CS Treasury himself. Why? Why don't they want to talk details? @Clemens @bigDog you know how govt will go about this while they are busy kicking down the debt repayment can down the road citing Covid?

Alafu Pesa itakua tied kwa mishahara na loans, when are we ever gonna grow the economy with development money constraint and choking business in taxes. If this thing passes the future of this country will look even grimmer

 

[AU5]

Typical nitpicking by a "supposedly 'critical thinker" specialist' you ignored the narrative of household wealth visavis contribution to the consolidated fund, I know that's not your forte, but please think and ingest before criticising. We are equal before the law, equality should extend to other sectors, our current viewpoint is biased against factory workers and farmers, something I know you can't relate to.

You are not equal, there is a reason as to why even employers pay Hardship allowance to people working in those areas and not to people working in Kiambu or Nyeri. You have more opportunities than they do; They lack access to most basic infrastructure and even availability of food, how that somehow makes you equal baffles me

 

[Mwalimu-G]

You are not equal, there is a reason as to why even employers pay Hardship allowance to people working in those areas and not to people working in Kiambu or Nyeri. You have more opportunities than they do; They lack access to most basic infrastructure and even availability of food, how that somehow makes you equal baffles me

How much do we need to be unequal to achieve parity and for how long?

 

[Denis Young]

The biggest carrot that BBI dangles is 35% to counties that is regurgitated by all and sundry who support it but when the questions are asked about how it'll be implemented and it's practicality, these are left blank by even the CS Treasury himself. Why? Why don't they want to talk details? @Clemens @bigDog you know how govt will go about this while they are busy kicking down the debt repayment can down the road citing Covid?

Nobody will tell you this until you sit down with or listen to an independent economist break down the factual figures.

Projected revenue collection is 1.6 billion.
Actual revenue collection will be around 1.5 billion.

Let's go to the BPS - Budget Policy Statement.

- It suggests a budget of 3.01 trillion.
- Recurrent expenditure goes to 1.98 trillion
- County allocation goes to 409 billion.
- Don't forget the loan repayment of 1 trillion also in this.
- It also suggest to increase domestic borrowing to 592 -> 662 billion and reduce foreign debt from 427 -> 267 billion. You already know what happens when a country increases domestic borrowing. Credit becomes less accessible for businesses in the country therefore killing growth.

Now, let us look at the realities. For that I will link this incredible video involving an independent economist and you will fully understand where we are headed.

 

[Luther12]

cash allocation

Hiyo cash mnataka kuongezewa itatoka wapi?