BBI Politics, objectively

[bigDog]

Do you recall this?

Hasn't the poster sacrificed his intellectualism at the alter of tribal politics, ama your goal posts change everytime?

So, we should ignore facts about Mt Kenya region being marginalized so that we can be called "intellectuals"?

 

[GuyNextDoor]

1. It does not address any of ordinary Kenyans problems, on the ground what needs major corrective surgery is the Economy, Healthcare, education and the Police

You talk of Mt. Kenya getting more constituencies, trust me we do not need them, we need a Cancer Centre and a national referral hospital not more MPs

2. Inclusion BBI style is a disaster, we cannot go back to having a President with top positions to dish out (PM, DPMs, CS slots for sitting MPs) and consolidate incredible political power, we are courting disaster with that new-look executive

3. We need fewer constituencies or maintain the current ones, there is no value in having more, and please do not mention more CDF getting to the ground because that money shouldn't even be in MPs custody, CDF is nothing but a cash cow for MPs

4. Ward Fund is nonsense, the county assembly should be able to oversee fair governance by the county governments with each ward benefitting without some fund to guarantee it

5. Who knows if 35% is sufficient to run counties? What if it is excessive? I say let us cost devolved functions and send money based on need not just throwing figures around, it is a proper dumb move.

6. The absolute disaster that awaits us after BBI is government machinery being used to amend the Constitution, a Raila Odinga or Mudavadi or Joho adminstration will launch another initiative that favours their people the same way BBI purportedly favours Central Kenya, at some point we will have our version of Pombe and senseless amendments will be floated, finally someone will propose abolishing of term limits and insert a "President for life" clause, with BBI having granted them unprecedented political power it will be a slumdunk and we will have gone back to dictatorship, is that your wish? Is that the nation you want your grandchildren to inherit?

BBI is not good for Kenya

I have not read everything you have said but I agree with you 100 PER CENT. OBEJECTIVELY!

 

[The.Black.Templar]

No, he has not if only you would try to understand him rather than fight his position from a predetermined position. Kindly let's end this sideshow.

I understand the poster. You are the one, unfortunately, fighting from a predetermined position, and shifting your previous position to suit your current narrative, i was 100% sure you would support moving away from tribal politics...but hey its life

 

[bigDog]

No, he has not if only you would try to understand him rather than fight his position from a predetermined position. Kindly let's end this sideshow.

Debating this guy is very difficult. He is all over the place ignoring facts. It's like herding cats!

I have not read everything you have said but I agree with you 100 PER CENT. OBEJECTIVELY!

That's an original one..

 

[Mwalimu-G]

So, we should ignore facts about Mt Kenya region being marginalized so that we can be called "intellectuals"?

"Beware the tyranny of the minority"

 

[bigDog]

I understand the poster. You are the one, unfortunately, fighting from a predetermined position, and shifting your previous position to suit your current narrative, i was 100% sure you would support moving away from tribal politics...but hey its life

What is a tribal argument to you?

 

[The.Black.Templar]

So, we should ignore facts about Mt Kenya region being marginalized so that we can be called "intellectuals"?

You have already been told up there that bbi is a trojan horse...most of those things can be done without a constitutional ammendment and you are yet to address those comments.

 

[The.Black.Templar]

What is a tribal argument to you?

Why are you angry that the other tribes appear to benefit more than your tribe in central?

 

[bigDog]

I understand the poster. You are the one, unfortunately, fighting from a predetermined position, and shifting your previous position to suit your current narrative, i was 100% sure you would support moving away from tribal politics...but hey its life

What is a tribal argument to you?

 

[bigDog]

Why are you angry that the other tribes appear to benefit more than your tribe in central?

How about we benefit equitably? How bad is that?

 

[bigDog]

You have already been told up there that bbi is a trojan horse...most of those things can be done without a constitutional ammendment and you are yet to address those comments.

Can you tell us what's inside the trojan horse?

 

[bigDog]

https://nation.africa/kenya/news/im...H-soBVurOZGOQGV35NA7O9zjVCJfODbkrzKLwC0FZjD3c
Where will that cash come from?

Chief, we are not that badly off. However some moffos went on hiring spree (especially counties) and we will need to retrench.

Just to clear it up. The allocation to counties will be at least 35% of revenue. So the central government gets the rest, 65%. I repeat, if revenue grows, counties get the same proportion (more cash), if it shrinks they get the same proportion (less cash). I suspect the central government will devolve more functions.

 

[Denis Young]

Can you tell us what's inside the trojan horse?

I will tell you since I described it as such.
Centralized/all powerful president governance. That is where we came from before the promulgation of the 2010 constitution.

With the 2010 constitution we resolved to reduce the powers of the president because it meant he was more accountable to the people. That is why the judiciary despite many of its questionable rulings remains a strong recourse especially now we are dealing with the BBI.

What you are experiencing now in the executive is exactly what we are trying to avoid. All the roles of the deputy which are not constitutionally guaranteed have been transferred to 'Super CS' Fred Matiangi who is effectively the prime minister.

With this change in the executive comes wanton disregard for the law, subversion of court orders including the president refusing to serialize the 41 judges crippling the courts.

The other hidden bit is that this will be used by Uhuru and his degenerates to illegaly invalidate his second term allowing him to vie again.

The funny thing is, when that time comes, all the institutions set to safe guard the constitution i.e Judiciary and Parliament will all have been

Can you tell us what's inside the trojan horse?

I will tell you since I described it as such.
Centralized/all powerful president governance. That is where we came from before the promulgation of the 2010 constitution.

With the 2010 constitution we resolved to reduce the powers of the president because it meant he was more accountable to the people. That is why the judiciary despite many of its questionable rulings remains a strong recourse especially now we are dealing with the BBI.

What you are experiencing now in the executive is exactly what we are trying to avoid. All the roles of the deputy which are not constitutionally guaranteed have been transferred to 'Super CS' Fred Matiangi who is effectively the prime minister.

With this change in the executive comes wanton disregard for the law, subversion of court orders including the president refusing to serialize the 41 judges crippling the courts.

The other hidden bit is that this will be used by Uhuru and his degenerates to illegaly invalidate his second term allowing him to vie again.

The funny thing is, when that time comes, all the institutions set to safe guard the constitution i.e Judiciary and Parliament will all have been disemboweled because you will now have an imperial president.

The BBI will allow Uhuru to nominate over 100+ new MPs and forgetting even the issue of the increased wage bill, he will be able to pass bills through the national assembly whenever he wants with the help of his new bedfellow, Raila, ODM, KANU mps.

You think you know...utajua hujui.

Meanwhile enjoy your extras millions in CDF that you will never even see a coin of as you get chocked in taxes.

 

[bigDog]

I will tell you since I described it as such.
Centralized/all powerful president governance. That is where we came from before the promulgation of the 2010 constitution.

With the 2010 constitution we resolved to reduce the powers of the president because it meant he was more accountable to the people. That is why the judiciary despite many of its questionable rulings remains a strong recourse especially now we are dealing with the BBI.

What you are experiencing now in the executive is exactly what we are trying to avoid. All the roles of the deputy which are not constitutionally guaranteed have been transferred to 'Super CS' Fred Matiangi who is effectively the prime minister.

With this change in the executive comes wanton disregard for the law, subversion of court orders including the president refusing to serialize the 41 judges crippling the courts.

The other hidden bit is that this will be used by Uhuru and his degenerates to illegaly invalidate his second term allowing him to vie again.

The funny thing is, when that time comes, all the institutions set to safe guard the constitution i.e Judiciary and Parliament will all have been

I will tell you since I described it as such.
Centralized/all powerful president governance. That is where we came from before the promulgation of the 2010 constitution.

With the 2010 constitution we resolved to reduce the powers of the president because it meant he was more accountable to the people. That is why the judiciary despite many of its questionable rulings remains a strong recourse especially now we are dealing with the BBI.

What you are experiencing now in the executive is exactly what we are trying to avoid. All the roles of the deputy which are not constitutionally guaranteed have been transferred to 'Super CS' Fred Matiangi who is effectively the prime minister.

With this change in the executive comes wanton disregard for the law, subversion of court orders including the president refusing to serialize the 41 judges crippling the courts.

The other hidden bit is that this will be used by Uhuru and his degenerates to illegaly invalidate his second term allowing him to vie again.

The funny thing is, when that time comes, all the institutions set to safe guard the constitution i.e Judiciary and Parliament will all have been disemboweled because you will now have an imperial president.

The BBI will allow Uhuru to nominate over 100+ new MPs and forgetting even the issue of the increased wage bill, he will be able to pass bills through the national assembly whenever he wants with the help of his new bedfellow, Raila, ODM, KANU mps.

You think you know...utajua hujui.

Meanwhile enjoy your extras millions in CDF that you will never even see a coin of as you get chocked in taxes.

Can you quote specific BBI bills that support your assertions? For you to strengthen the Presidency, you need to take powers away from other institutions. Can you cite a bill that waters down other independent arms and offices so that we can debate?

 

[Mwalimu-G]

Can you cite a bill that waters down other independent arms and offices so that we can debate?

Most likely tutaambiwa Judiciary Ombudsman. The question I have been asking myself is do we want a judiciary that is answerable to no one but itself?

 

[bigDog]

Most likely tutaambiwa Judiciary Ombudsman. The question I have been asking myself is do we want a judiciary that is answerable to no one but itself?

Remember what Shollei did? What that other lady has done? Pure impunity! Na wanasema!

 

[bigDog]

Most likely tutaambiwa Judiciary Ombudsman. The question I have been asking myself is do we want a judiciary that is answerable to no one but itself?

Come to think of it, I have a problem with the JSC as currently constituted. It's got too much vested interests in it. The legal profession should have 40% representation. We have less than 15,000 lawyers controlling the whole arm of the government! Why?

 

[Denis Young]

Can you quote specific BBI bills that support your assertions? For you to strengthen the Presidency, you need to take powers away from other institutions. Can you cite a bill that waters down other independent arms and offices so that we can debate?

Fine!

1. The prime minister and his two deputies are both presidential appointees meaning they are accountable to the president and can be sacked at the presidents volition.
2. Increasing parliamentary seats and specifically through nomination means that the government's agenda will pass uncontested because they carry the numbers.
3. The Judicial Ombudsman is also a presidential appointment meaning that the Judiciary will lose its independence completely and be beholden to the whims of the executive.
4. It has been proposed that the Cabinet Secretaries should be drawn from MPs which again means that they are only accountable to parliament itself where the government has total majority.

So, how do you expect an executive that basically controls every arm of government check itself?

Also, apart from getting more representation in Mount Kenya and getting more money, kindly list at least 3 other reasons you support BBI to match my list here.

 

[Mr Black]

You have articulated your points very well. I will however say that this statement is contradictory. You cannot separate marginalization and poverty. They are hand and glove.
@bigDog gave the example of under-representation and bursaries and perhaps failed to point out some data that will demonstrate the marginalization of the child in mt Kenya.
At the outset let's agree that education is one of the interventions that help poor families break the vicious cycle of poverty.
Now, when constituencies get a flat rate shs 137.4 million allocation for bursary there is no parity/equity between the children in the Mountain and in Northern Kenya. The child in the mountain will get a tiny fraction of what Northern Kenya students get...in fact it has been said northern kenya counties are even able to pay fees for their students abroad. Take Garissa and Nyandarua counties as examples.
Garissa - 6 constituencies X 137.4 million =824.4 million

Nyandarua - 4 Constituencies X 137.4 million =549.6

Garissa has 6580 students in 18 secondary schools
Nyandarua has 62000 students in 105 secondary schools

Assuming the proportion of poor students needing bursaries is the same, then '
A child in Garissa will get 824 400000/6580= Shs 124,288
A child in Nyandarua will get 549600000/62000 = Shs 8,864

Where is the fairness in these figures? Don't you think the calls for allocation based on population are justified?

If the constituency is the basis for allocation then I should also have a proportionate number of constituencies

In this country a perception has been planted in people's mind where only some regions can claim to have been marginalised, others are supposedly utopia and are expected to forfeit resources allocated to them

Poverty on the other hand is measurable and undeniable, it cuts across every region, tribe and community and disarms those who would argue some regions do not deserve affirmative action

Now, the inequalities you point to are the result of our groping-in-the-dark tactics, yours is a compelling argument for the abolishment of CDF

CDF is the equivalent of using 7.62mm bullets to kill snails, vultures, snakes, omena, elephants and squirrels, you are going to have some clean shots and some pretty messy, wasteful ones, I say let's abolish CDF and have an Education Bursary fund, that way no poor child is disenfranchised because we are too lazy to build a fit-for-purpose fund.

If we keep using CDF as a bursary and grassroot development fund we are going to have unending conflict around delimitation of boundaries and formation of new constituencies, every administration will be tempted to correct inequalities in their regions by creating new units through BBI-like amendments.

For now we are going to have to keep up with staggering inequalities

 

[Montecarlo]

In this country a perception has been planted in people's mind where only some regions can claim to have been marginalised, others are supposedly utopia and are expected to forfeit resources allocated to them

Poverty on the other hand is measurable and undeniable, it cuts across every region, tribe and community and disarms those who would argue some regions do not deserve affirmative action

Now, the inequalities you point to are the result of our groping-in-the-dark tactics, yours is a compelling argument for the abolishment of CDF

CDF is the equivalent of using 7.62mm bullets to kill snails, vultures, snakes, omena, elephants and squirrels, you are going to have some clean shots and some pretty messy, wasteful ones, I say let's abolish CDF and have an Education Bursary fund, that way no poor child is disenfranchised because we are too lazy to build a fit-for-purpose fund.

If we keep using CDF as a bursary and grassroot development fund we are going to have unending conflict around delimitation of boundaries and formation of new constituencies, every administration will be tempted to correct inequalities in their regions by creating new units through BBI-like amendments.

For now we are going to have to keep up with staggering inequalities

Inequality that is not as adverse as that in Kenya is to be expected.... let's call it inherent inequality.....that no matter how much you try to equalise access to resources what the recipients of those resources do with them will always result to differences in status