Sasa hizi ni quagmire gani jayden anatuingiza?

JazzMan said:
Very true. On an actual confrontation, every military has its own ways to get things done. But at this point, there is nothing new under the sun. We know the tools KDF have, and how they can be used. All we can do is speculate and hope one of us is right.
Click to expand...

You probably know. That's the right level of knowledge.
 
Field Marshal said:
You keep talking about the KDF's lift capability. Dude, it's not only c-130s that have that capability. They may be among the big aircraft, but even smaller planes are capable. In any case, Kenya has other options of lifting equipment and personnel. It can use KQ to lift personnel and hired planes from say Ukraine to lift equipment. It has been done before.
Click to expand...
Spreading influence takes having the muscle to spread such influence. That means, by yourself, you can deploy that battalion and its assets without requiring hired help.
Aside from deploying, you also have to resupply. If they will be stationed in a remote place with no paved runways, you will need planes capable of operating in such an environment. A 737 with low hanging engines will suck up all debris on an austere airfield, that's why a C-130 is king; a turboprop with engines placed so high the plane can land and take off on beaches.

Yes, it has been done before, even the larger economies do the same. However, they handle last mile delivery organically. The KQ planes land on big airports and then transfer the cargo onto smaller planes or helicopters for last mile delivery. How many of those can KAF spare?

Don't forget the thing that makes all this possible. Money. How is all that logistics going to be paid for when the country is taking loans left right and centre? This is where having the battalion under MONUSCO makes sense. But, will the battalion have the flexibility to operate in the best interest of the Congolese?

Whoever controls the purse strings calls the shots. It won't be Kenya's agenda at the forefront anymore, ergo, no influence to spread.

Field Marshal said:
You want to tell me we don't have both military and civilian trucks that can reach the DRC through Ug. I can bet my last penny that's what's gonna happen any way, just as Ug's troops routinely pass through Kenya enroute to Somalia.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what is going to happen, if they will be going outside of the auspices of the UN. If under MONUSCO, then logistics will be handled by the UN.

Field Marshal said:
I really don't understand why you think that a unit of say 800 KDF personnel in eastern congo under the UN must have c-130s on standby. For what? They will not be doing any para drops all over the place - that happens only in movies. Watapatiwa sector to hold, and that's it, just like Somalia
Click to expand...
Transport aircraft are not for para drops only. They are specialised transport utility aircraft first, troop carriers second. Those troops in theatre will need to be resupplied, sometimes urgently. In cases of casualties, they can be airlifted out to receive emergency treatment.

If it is the UN handling logistics, they already have what is needed. But if its KDF on its own, that's a different matter.

As it stands, the three C-27s will have to make four trips each to carry the entire battalion. You haven't included their equipment. Three C-130's can handle this much easier. Don't forget helicopters for remote transport and resupply. That's why SA have five of their own in Congo. Trucks only work where there are motorable tracks. As you may know, Eastern Congo roads may not be so hospitable to trucking.

Field Marshal said:
I also keep wondering why you keep thinking that any East African country would be against Kenya's deployment. Kenya is deploying under the UN, authorised by the SC in which we seat. Going against Kenya will be going against the SC. Who'll do that?
Click to expand...
Somalia is not happy with the decision of the SC and AU authorising Kenya's deployment there. The authorisation doesn't stop them from trying to mess with Jubbaland and Kenya's deployment there. With Rwanda and Uganda having vested interests there, do you think they will come out into the open to say they don't like Kenya's deployment there? If anything, it is an opportunity for their intelligence services to glean KDFs capabilities.
 
JazzMan said:
Spreading influence takes having the muscle to spread such influence. That means, by yourself, you can deploy that battalion and its assets without requiring hired help.
Aside from deploying, you also have to resupply. If they will be stationed in a remote place with no paved runways, you will need planes capable of operating in such an environment. A 737 with low hanging engines will suck up all debris on an austere airfield, that's why a C-130 is king; a turboprop with engines placed so high the plane can land and take off on beaches.

Yes, it has been done before, even the larger economies do the same. However, they handle last mile delivery organically. The KQ planes land on big airports and then transfer the cargo onto smaller planes or helicopters for last mile delivery. How many of those can KAF spare?

Don't forget the thing that makes all this possible. Money. How is all that logistics going to be paid for when the country is taking loans left right and centre? This is where having the battalion under MONUSCO makes sense. But, will the battalion have the flexibility to operate in the best interest of the Congolese?

Whoever controls the purse strings calls the shots. It won't be Kenya's agenda at the forefront anymore, ergo, no influence to spread.


This is exactly what is going to happen, if they will be going outside of the auspices of the UN. If under MONUSCO, then logistics will be handled by the UN.


Transport aircraft are not for para drops only. They are specialised transport utility aircraft first, troop carriers second. Those troops in theatre will need to be resupplied, sometimes urgently. In cases of casualties, they can be airlifted out to receive emergency treatment.

If it is the UN handling logistics, they already have what is needed. But if its KDF on its own, that's a different matter.

As it stands, the three C-27s will have to make four trips each to carry the entire battalion. You haven't included their equipment. Three C-130's can handle this much easier. Don't forget helicopters for remote transport and resupply. That's why SA have five of their own in Congo. Trucks only work where there are motorable tracks. As you may know, Eastern Congo roads may not be so hospitable to trucking.


Somalia is not happy with the decision of the SC and AU authorising Kenya's deployment there. The authorisation doesn't stop them from trying to mess with Jubbaland and Kenya's deployment there. With Rwanda and Uganda having vested interests there, do you think they will come out into the open to say they don't like Kenya's deployment there? If anything, it is an opportunity for their intelligence services to glean KDFs capabilities.
Click to expand...

Stop overthinking.
 
JazzMan said:
Spreading influence takes having the muscle to spread such influence. That means, by yourself, you can deploy that battalion and its assets without requiring hired help.
Aside from deploying, you also have to resupply. If they will be stationed in a remote place with no paved runways, you will need planes capable of operating in such an environment. A 737 with low hanging engines will suck up all debris on an austere airfield, that's why a C-130 is king; a turboprop with engines placed so high the plane can land and take off on beaches.

Yes, it has been done before, even the larger economies do the same. However, they handle last mile delivery organically. The KQ planes land on big airports and then transfer the cargo onto smaller planes or helicopters for last mile delivery. How many of those can KAF spare?

Don't forget the thing that makes all this possible. Money. How is all that logistics going to be paid for when the country is taking loans left right and centre? This is where having the battalion under MONUSCO makes sense. But, will the battalion have the flexibility to operate in the best interest of the Congolese?

Whoever controls the purse strings calls the shots. It won't be Kenya's agenda at the forefront anymore, ergo, no influence to spread.


This is exactly what is going to happen, if they will be going outside of the auspices of the UN. If under MONUSCO, then logistics will be handled by the UN.


Transport aircraft are not for para drops only. They are specialised transport utility aircraft first, troop carriers second. Those troops in theatre will need to be resupplied, sometimes urgently. In cases of casualties, they can be airlifted out to receive emergency treatment.

If it is the UN handling logistics, they already have what is needed. But if its KDF on its own, that's a different matter.

As it stands, the three C-27s will have to make four trips each to carry the entire battalion. You haven't included their equipment. Three C-130's can handle this much easier. Don't forget helicopters for remote transport and resupply. That's why SA have five of their own in Congo. Trucks only work where there are motorable tracks. As you may know, Eastern Congo roads may not be so hospitable to trucking.


Somalia is not happy with the decision of the SC and AU authorising Kenya's deployment there. The authorisation doesn't stop them from trying to mess with Jubbaland and Kenya's deployment there. With Rwanda and Uganda having vested interests there, do you think they will come out into the open to say they don't like Kenya's deployment there? If anything, it is an opportunity for their intelligence services to glean KDFs capabilities.
Click to expand...
As @bigDog has told you, you are over-thinking. As currently constituted, the KDF has the lift capability to support any deployment in the Congo. As I have said, virtually all militaries sub-contract big planes or ships to transport stuff to theatre. In our case call that Goma. From there you need smaller planes to transport food and ammunition to FOBs say once every week. Assume you have six FOBs in eastern Congo. You'll need just three planes to do that.

Kenya is still operating 4 Buffalos, 10 Y-12s and the three brand new -27 Spartans AS WELL AS AN ADDITIONAL 4 C-145 Skytrucks commissioned just last week. Dude, this is more than enough lift capacity. You just need a Spartan, a Skytruck and one Y-12 to have excess capacity for that.
 
bigDog said:
There are facts and there are opinions.

Facts:. 1. We need the DRC as a partner.
2. It doesn't matter which president clinches the deal with the DRC. All of us stand to benefit.
3. With this deal, tuache siasa mingi
Click to expand...
All very true, but how we go about it matters a lot.
 
Field Marshal said:
As @bigDog has told you, you are over-thinking. As currently constituted, the KDF has the lift capability to support any deployment in the Congo. As I have said, virtually all militaries sub-contract big planes or ships to transport stuff to theatre. In our case call that Goma. From there you need smaller planes to transport food and ammunition to FOBs say once every week. Assume you have six FOBs in eastern Congo. You'll need just three planes to do that.
Click to expand...
Yes, KDF has the lift capability, for internal needs. If you start sending battalions and their equipment outside of Kenya, you need longer legs, and deeper pockets. Those same aircraft are meant to support troops in Somalia, support training and internal movements between KDF bases, they are also meant to go out and patrol the vast coastline and EEZ among other needs.

When you consider all these things, the transport aircraft are stretched thin.

Field Marshal said:
Kenya is still operating 4 Buffalos, 10 Y-12s and the three brand new -27 Spartans AS WELL AS AN ADDITIONAL 4 C-145 Skytrucks commissioned just last week. Dude, this is more than enough lift capacity. You just need a Spartan, a Skytruck and one Y-12 to have excess capacity for that.
Click to expand...
The buffalos have been retired/scaled back from service. Not all Y-12 are air worthy, some have dedicated missions. The Spartans are meant to replace the Buffalos and the Skytrucks are pundas dedicated for use by SOF.

Don't forget these aircraft need downtime for maintenance, which can be days or weeks. Some of the Y-12 are dedicated Coastal Patrol and KDF internal transport and at least one of the C-27s is being used as VIP transport.

There are not enough airframes to support a unilateral mission that far away from home.

 
JazzMan said:
There are too many actors. The most overt are Uganda and Rwanda. The people who benefit most are the tech giants like China, Germany, UK, US and Japan.

We all know western countries are not above sponsoring terrorists to ensure their interests are protected. Interests such as keeping the prices of these minerals dirt cheap and flowing to them only, and not to the highest bidder that a functional system would want.

Guerillas with local knowledge will always have the tactical advantage. Ask the Afghans and the reason why they are called the graveyard of empires.


In country, South Africa. They have SF, Paras, Intelligence and long range fire support in the form of snipers and artillery alongside conventional troops. They also have their Rooivalks for fire support and Super Pumas for point to point logistics. They also have regular resupply via their C-130s.
Click to expand...

Chief, do you know operational requirement s
JazzMan said:
Yes, KDF has the lift capability, for internal needs. If you start sending battalions and their equipment outside of Kenya, you need longer legs, and deeper pockets. Those same aircraft are meant to support troops in Somalia, support training and internal movements between KDF bases, they are also meant to go out and patrol the vast coastline and EEZ among other needs.

When you consider all these things, the transport aircraft are stretched thin.


The buffalos have been retired/scaled back from service. Not all Y-12 are air worthy, some have dedicated missions. The Spartans are meant to replace the Buffalos and the Skytrucks are pundas dedicated for use by SOF.

Don't forget these aircraft need downtime for maintenance, which can be days or weeks. Some of the Y-12 are dedicated Coastal Patrol and KDF internal transport and at least one of the C-27s is being used as VIP transport.

There are not enough airframes to support a unilateral mission that far away from home.

Click to expand...


VIP and inter-base transporters can be leased now that the aviation industry is depressed.
 
Just looking at this from a layman, or contrary point of view.

what is the end game, or rather benefit in sending muscles to the DRC, unless its a few individuals benefiting, I dont see the economic value of having like 1000 soldiers paid 1 or 200k. From an economic perspective, at least a national one it does not make sense, also from an exposure point of view I dont see much gain, the soldiers will most likely be operating under the UN and its such a small number I dont see much gain.

From a regional power point of view, I think we are a regional power because of our enterprise, and ability to have wazungu set up shop locally rather than from a military perspective, will any regional country, or any country for that matter think of us differently because we are kicking ass in the DRC, maybe, but I also dont see the sense in that, we still have to depend on a few developed countries to provide us with the hardware, so we are more of a proxy.

From a 'mineral' exploration point, I still cant see any sense in that also, apart from a few individuals maybe gaining by smuggling the same, there is no value to the country from that, the same have to be purchased by the west for any value to be derived.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top