Awareness week

JazzMan said:
Hapa umedanganya pia. Yes, it existed, but it was frowned upon. Even the Kiswahili word for it, ushoga, is viewed as an insult when used on a man as it was a word used to by a woman to describe their best friend, who was another woman. That word wouldn't have been used if people did not talk about it.
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Source

Gender-nonconforming and homosexuality has been reported in a number of East African societies. In pre-colonial East Africa there have been examples of male priests in traditional religions dressing as women. British social anthropologist Rodney Needham has described such a religious leadership role called "mugawe" among the Meru people and Kikuyu people of Kenya, which included wearing women's clothes and hairstyle.[21] Mugawe are frequently homosexual, and sometimes are formally married to a man.

Swedish anthropologist Felix Bryk reported active (i.e., insertive) Kikuyu pederasts called onek, and also mentioned "homo-erotic bachelors" among the pastoralist Nandi and Maragoli (Wanga). The Nandi as well as the Maasai would sometimes cross-dress as women during initiation ceremonies.

In Uganda, religious roles for cross-dressing men (homosexual priests) were historically found among the Bunyoro people. Similarly, the kingdom of Buganda (part of modern-day Uganda) institutionalised certain forms of same-sex relations. Young men served in the royal courts and provided sexual services for visitors and elites. King Mwanga II of Buganda had several such men executed when they converted to Christianity and refused to carry out their assigned duties (the "Uganda Martyrs").[6][22] The Teso people of Uganda also have a category of men who dress as women.
 
Young_Turk said:
June 8 2020

Protest against police violence and brutality
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Again, you fell for the mzungu trap of conflating separate issues and claiming they are the originators, similar to how they tried to claim Makmende started from a Clint Eastwood movie.

Police here had murdered a young boy, on a balcony, then proceeded to murder others because they couldn't afford masks. So the marching that took place after the killing of Kianjokoma brothers was also part of BLM?



 
JazzMan said:
Even the Kiswahili word for it, ushoga, is viewed as an insult when used on a man as it was a word used to by a woman to describe their best friend, who was another woman.
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Shoga is an expression used to name the homosexual or effeminate men who is the sexual partner of the basha.

It is a term related to the feminine, since it is also used to indicate the best qualities of a woman and also to name the best friend of a woman.


Basha
Basha is one of the most common and significant words in Swahili slang to name active homosexuals or men. And we mean men who are “really, masculine” but who, occasionally, or not so much, have sex with “female” men.

The term derives from the Turkish word paşa, also found in Arabic as باشا [bāšā] and in Spanish as bajá or pasha. It means governor, man with a position of high command in the army or the administration, etc. Within the Swahili speaking areas it is also used to name the king of a deck of cards.

Its use as a homosexual slang word goes back at least to the 80s and we found it in several dictionaries of the time, such as the Standard Dictionary of Swahili, which also states that the term does not presuppose homosexuality, but it is rather referred to the “man who sodomizes”, disregarding the gender of the couple.

The sexual partner of the basha would be the shoga. Some authors have inferred a model structured on power, money, the age of each one of the parties, etc, in the basha/shoga relationship. Nevertheless, and based on what we have been able to find out and suppose, it had much more complexity at the feelings level.

So, we are fronted once again with the idea of Mostacero (Spanish, Peru) or Manyak (Arabic), which show that one thing is homosexual behavior and another very different one, homosexuality.
 
JazzMan said:
Hapa umedanganya pia. Yes, it existed, but it was frowned upon. Even the Kiswahili word for it, ushoga, is viewed as an insult when used on a man as it was a word used to by a woman to describe their best friend, who was another woman. That word wouldn't have been used if people did not talk about it.
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But yes, I agree, Shoga na Basha, both terms have evolved

The same way Gay used to mean being happy and a Fag was a cigarette.
 
JazzMan said:
Police here had murdered a young boy, on a balcony, then proceeded to murder others because they couldn't afford masks. So the marching that took place after the killing of Kianjokoma brothers was also part of BLM?
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Yes, I agree.

But if you go back to my post, you'll see I said

"Another great example is the Black Lives Matter Movement. The whole world lead similar movements in support and in response to their own brutalities that they face domestically. "
 
Young_Turk said:
Source

Gender-nonconforming and homosexuality has been reported in a number of East African societies. In pre-colonial East Africa there have been examples of male priests in traditional religions dressing as women. British social anthropologist Rodney Needham has described such a religious leadership role called "mugawe" among the Meru people and Kikuyu people of Kenya, which included wearing women's clothes and hairstyle.[21] Mugawe are frequently homosexual, and sometimes are formally married to a man.

Swedish anthropologist Felix Bryk reported active (i.e., insertive) Kikuyu pederasts called onek, and also mentioned "homo-erotic bachelors" among the pastoralist Nandi and Maragoli (Wanga). The Nandi as well as the Maasai would sometimes cross-dress as women during initiation ceremonies.

In Uganda, religious roles for cross-dressing men (homosexual priests) were historically found among the Bunyoro people. Similarly, the kingdom of Buganda (part of modern-day Uganda) institutionalised certain forms of same-sex relations. Young men served in the royal courts and provided sexual services for visitors and elites. King Mwanga II of Buganda had several such men executed when they converted to Christianity and refused to carry out their assigned duties (the "Uganda Martyrs").[6][22] The Teso people of Uganda also have a category of men who dress as women.
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Mzungu will come up with anything to prove their point, especially in African societies where oral tradition reigns supreme. Kwanza that part of Maasais and Nandis cross dressing like women doesn't even compute. They wear similar jewellery and hide clothing ama were they supposed to design trousers and skirts to prove they dress different?

Ask any Ameru here if that mugawe story is true. I can guarantee you many people here saw that story from the internet.
 
Young_Turk said:
Yes, I agree.

But if you go back to my post, you'll see I said

"Another great example is the Black Lives Matter Movement. The whole world lead similar movements in support and in response to their own brutalities that they face domestically. "
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Again, you are conflating two separate subjects. The reason Kenyans were protesting police brutality had nothing to do with what the mzungu did. Protests against police have always happened in this country, and they were not instigated by what some mzungus did in their country.
 
Young_Turk said:
But yes, I agree, Shoga na Basha, both terms have evolved

The same way Gay used to mean being happy and a Fag was a cigarette.
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Again, you are conflating separate things.

Just because a term in English has evolved doesn't mean the same has happened in Kiswahili. Those are two separate languages from two separate cultures. If I call my neighbour shoga right now, I'm likely to be hacked to death. Why? The word still retains its original meaning and has not evolved.
 
JazzMan said:
Mzungu will come up with anything to prove their point, especially in African societies where oral tradition reigns supreme. Kwanza that part of Maasais and Nandis cross dressing like women doesn't even compute. They wear similar jewellery and hide clothing ama were they supposed to design trousers and skirts to prove they dress different?

Ask any Ameru here if that mugawe story is true. I can guarantee you many people here saw that story from the internet.
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Hard to confirm anything using modern means these days.

Oral tradition has a tendency of getting warped and lost along the way.

Like a game of broken telephone.

Also, I agree, western bias might also blur and twist things to fit their narratives.

But can we both agree that Homosexuals existed in pre colonial Africa?
 
JazzMan said:
If I call my neighbour shoga right now, I'm likely to be hacked to death. Why? The word still retains its original meaning and has not evolved
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I would argue that he'd hack you to death given what the word means today in modern context.

As to wehter if the word retains its original meaning, I'd llike to leave that to an expert to tell us.

Luckily, @john7 ni gwiji wa lugha

Tafadhali njoo tujadiliane. :D
 
Young_Turk said:
Hard to confirm anything using modern means these days.

Oral tradition has a tendency of getting warped and lost along the way.

Like a game of broken telephone.

Also, I agree, western bias might also blur and twist things to fit their narratives.

But can we both agree that Homosexuals existed in pre colonial Africa?
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Oral tradition, despite what many think, is alive and well. That's how I know the Luhyas from Matayos area in Busia are not really Luhyas, but Maasais who settled there after the Maasai civil war and were assimilated. The Abakhabi are descendants of Kwavi maasai.

Existed yes, accepted, we cannot agree on that. Some deviants may have experimented but the society frowned upon it hence terms like shoga. The mzungu can use any means to confuse you and prove their point. It's not the first time they've done it, it's not the last.

Here is an example from that needham fellow

mzungu liars.png


That entire paragraph is rife with falsehoods, as if cultures cannot have similar elements. Where would the Ameru and mzungu have met if it weren't for colonialism? Does that fellow want to say the Ameru did not have the culture of elevating the right hand over the left before they met the mzungu? Honestly, what nonsense is this? Is this the person you believe to bring out a true depiction of Ameru culture?

Thinking about it, those mugwes could have been staying away from men, for the purpose of spiritual purity, not because they were homosexuals as that mzungu assumed.
 
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Young_Turk said:
I would argue that he'd hack you to death given what the word means today in modern context.

As to wehter if the word retains its original meaning, I'd llike to leave that to an expert to tell us.

Luckily, @john7 ni gwiji wa lugha

Tafadhali njoo tujadiliane. :D
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Wabongo wenyewe washasema, vile vile nilivyoashiria

Maana ya neno Shoga

Hili neno #shoga linaboa huwa nini maana yake haswaa wazee wa kamusi na visingeli.
www.jamiiforums.com www.jamiiforums.com

Kiswahili, unlike English, has not undergone a cultural shift to keep up with modern times.
 
JazzMan said:
Oral tradition, despite what many think, is alive and well. That's how I know the Luhyas from Matayos area in Busia are not really Luhyas, but Maasais who settled there after the Maasai civil war and were assimilated. The Abakhabi are descendants of Kwavi maasai.

Existed yes, accepted, we cannot agree on that. Some deviants may have experimented but the society frowned upon it hence terms like shoga. The mzungu can use any means to confuse you and prove their point. It's not the first time they've done it, it's not the last.

Here is an example from that needham fellow

View attachment 47825

That entire paragraph is rife with falsehoods, as if cultures cannot have similar elements. Where would the Ameru and mzungu have met if it weren't for colonialism? Does that fellow want to say the Ameru did not have the culture of elevating the right hand over the left before they met the mzungu? Honestly, what nonsense is this? Is this the person you believe to bring out a true depiction of Ameru culture?
Click to expand...

I acknowledged in the same post that

"Also, I agree, western bias might also blur and twist things to fit their narratives. "

I'm glad you recognize the existence of homosexuals in precolonial Africa.

Moving forward, I also made the point on HIV/AIDS and how poor homophobic policies lead to the LGBT movement fight for recognition in the public space.

So you see @JazzMan Its you and I having this debate and others occurring all across the world that has allowed for the LGBT movement to rise to its prominence today.
 
JazzMan said:
Kiswahili, unlike English, has not undergone a cultural shift to keep up with modern times.
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Now this, I find very hard to believe.

How can a language, that is literally an amalgamation of other languages among a people spread from the horn of Africa, through Central and East Africa all the down to South Africa (Mozambique) not have changed in the many years that it has existed?

A mix of tens if not hundreds of dialects?

Unchanged?

Not one word?

Come on.
 
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