This is Guka - I Stand With Justice Said Chitambwe.............

I think kenya's is the most stupid sexual offences law outside the Middle East....................it would never pass in places like Europe, Japan, Northern America or even India................
 
Field Marshal said:
Do not trigger me madam. I have a very low tolerance for BS. Kwani watoto wa Britain na Europe huko uko mature faster juu their ages of consent are lower?
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What you are advocating for is simply not possible @Field Marshal.
This is because for any law to be effective and functional it has to be clear, unambiguous and certain. It is only such a law that is capable of sanctioning your liberty by a jail sentence or financial punishment by a fine or granting any of the myriads of injunctions.
The Age of Consent is such a law specifying at what age sex can be presumed consensual.

The problem with your piece is that you expect the law to accommodate individuals’ circumstances and situations. To understand that the Girl was only a year to this Age and that the Man was highly educated and skilled. You expect the law to compromise on its specifications. That’s impossible and won’t happen. Any law that is not specific, articulate and precise can be challenged as it will only create confusion.

What I can agree with you is that Judges don’t always have to give the maximum penalties for offences. That is the reason they have a wide discretion on the penalties they can give. Do remember also that Judges should act on the mitigation grounds given. That is where they can bring the human touch to the cold hand of criminal justice. After all sentencing should not only be about punishment but also about rehabilitation.

By the way, you are wrong in thinking that Sexual Offenders in the west are treated with kid gloves. To the contrary. Anyone charged with a sexual offence in UK faces insurmountable and difficulty life from then to the end of their earthly lives. They may get 3 years imprisonments but because they are on Sex Register they have to report to their local police station for life. If they change addresses they have to inform probation. They can’t travel abroad and they have to declare their convictions (Sexual Offences Act) in every job application. Of course they never ever get employed in any meaningful jobs ever after.
 
Tiiga Waana said:
What you are advocating for is simply not possible @Field Marshal.
This is because for any law to be effective and functional it has to be clear, unambiguous and certain. It is only such a law that is capable of sanctioning your liberty by a jail sentence or financial punishment by a fine or granting any of the myriads of injunctions.
The Age of Consent is such a law specifying at what age sex can be presumed consensual.

The problem with your piece is that you expect the law to accommodate individuals’ circumstances and situations. To understand that the Girl was only a year to this Age and that the Man was highly educated and skilled. You expect the law to compromise on its specifications. That’s impossible and won’t happen. Any law that is not specific, articulate and precise can be challenged as it will only create confusion.

What I can agree with you is that Judges don’t always have to give the maximum penalties for offences. That is the reason they have a wide discretion on the penalties they can give. Do remember also that Judges should act on the mitigation grounds given. That is where they can bring the human touch to the cold hand of criminal justice. After all sentencing should not only be about punishment but also about rehabilitation.

By the way, you are wrong in thinking that Sexual Offenders in the west are treated with kid gloves. To the contrary. Anyone charged with a sexual offence in UK faces insurmountable and difficulty life from then to the end of their earthly lives. They may get 3 years imprisonments but because they are on Sex Register they have to report to their local police station for life. If they change addresses they have to inform probation. They can’t travel abroad and they have to declare their convictions (Sexual Offences Act) in every job application. Of course they never ever get employed in any meaningful jobs ever after.
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Let me engage you kidogo before I give up.

The greatest weakness with the Kenyan sexual Offences Act is that it gives ABSOLUTE sentences. No room for mitigation or for the magistrate to give you a lesser sentence. What's more, ALL THE MANDATORY SENTENCES ARE EXCESSIVE.

For example if a judge finds a, 18 old boy has had sex with a 17.5 year old girl (THAT'S AN AGE DIFFERENCE OF LESS THAN SIX months) IT IS DEFILEMENT AND THE BOY GOES IN FOR 10-15 YEARS. MANDATORY, NO ROOM FOR MITIGATING FACTORS.

Is this justice?

The Supreme Court has already ruled that MANDATORY sentences are unconstitutional (at least in the cases of murder and robbery with violence). In fact the same lacunae existed with the latter as well - kijana anaku-threaten with a rock anakunyanganya simu, he's sentenced to death though he never hurt you. Another one participates in killing an entire family during a robbery and he too is sentenced to death. Where's the justice for the former? Where's the proportionality, a major cornerstone of law?

I can understand a death or even life sentence for a beast who drags a seven-year old into the bush and rapes and kills her. Life for life. Even if the girl survives she's traumatised for life. But what the logic in jailing a 20-year old kid for 15 years for having a love affair with a 17-year old? Sisi hatukucheza cha baba na mama? Can the same happen anywhere in Europe? ANSWER THIS SPECIFIC QUESTION.

But it gets worse. The stupidly way this law is applied is what is seeing hundreds and even thousands of men rotting in jail. A wife wants to take away the shamba, she shouts 'rape', eti you defiled a 7-year old. MANDATORY JAIL-TERM OF LIFE. You have a dispute with a female business colleague, rape! And then you wonder why we are killing them like rats.

Kenyan courts have also been implementing the law with a very little threshold of evidence. Often it's the man's word against that of a coached 10-year old. Guess what, the 10-year old is believed. LIFE. Years later, after the man has lost everything and the girl is an adult, she realises she was misused and recants her evidence. Guess what again? The man cannot be released if he had exhausted his appeal options! What ferkery is this (several cases have come up this year alone, SEVERAL!)

Justice Chitembwe said yesterday many magistrates and judges are also cowed to pass unjust sentences because they fear the back-lash from activists and the press. He said he himself faced matusi when he realised a convict called Charo.

Njoki Ndungu once represented her matha against her fatha in court so we all know where she's coming from. But a country of 50 million should not be saddled with a bad law because one entitled bitch hates men.

Oh, and she's my (very) distant cousin so I should know...................
 
Tiiga Waana said:
is that Judges don’t always have to give the maximum penalties for offences. That is the reason they have a wide discretion on the penalties they can give. Do remember also that Judges should act on the mitigation grounds given.
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Reminds me of the hullabaloo brought about by the Narcotics and Psychotropics Substances Act of 1994 whereby judges were jailing offenders right left and centre for possession of miniscule amounts of weed for 10 years. Then one brave judge ( or magistrate, can't remember) brought this nonsense to a head by pointing out that shall be liable to is not the same as mandatory and eventually sentenced the convict to a few months in jail.
 
Kamau wa Kíríro said:
Reminds me of the hullabaloo brought about by the Narcotics and Psychotropics Substances Act of 1994 whereby judges were jailing offenders right left and centre for possession of miniscule amounts of weed for 10 years. Then one brave judge ( or magistrate, can't remember) brought this nonsense to a head by pointing out that shall be liable to is not the same as mandatory and eventually sentenced the convict to a few months in jail.
Click to expand...
In the US, where different 'races' use different classes of drugs, the same nonsense has been used to jail more Blacks than whites. Unapata ukishikwa na heroine (for example) unaenda ndani for 3 years because it's used mostly by caucasians, lakini ukishikwa na brown sugar which is used more in Black areas unaenda ndani for 20.

PS: The drugs are used for illustration only.
 
Field Marshal said:
Let me engage you kidogo before I give up.

The greatest weakness with the Kenyan sexual Offences Act is that it gives ABSOLUTE sentences. No room for mitigation or for the magistrate to give you a lesser sentence. What's more, ALL THE MANDATORY SENTENCES ARE EXCESSIVE.

For example if a judge finds a, 18 old boy has had sex with a 17.5 year old girl (THAT'S AN AGE DIFFERENCE OF LESS THAN SIX months) IT IS DEFILEMENT AND THE BOY GOES IN FOR 10-15 YEARS. MANDATORY, NO ROOM FOR MITIGATING FACTORS.

Is this justice?

The Supreme Court has already ruled that MANDATORY sentences are unconstitutional (at least in the cases of murder and robbery with violence). In fact the same lacunae existed with the latter as well - kijana anaku-threaten with a rock anakunyanganya simu, he's sentenced to death though he never hurt you. Another one participates in killing an entire family during a robbery and he too is sentenced to death. Where's the justice for the former? Where's the proportionality, a major cornerstone of law?

I can understand a death or even life sentence for a beast who drags a seven-year old into the bush and rapes and kills her. Life for life. Even if the girl survives she's traumatised for life. But what the logic in jailing a 20-year old kid for 15 years for having a love affair with a 17-year old? Sisi hatukucheza cha baba na mama? Can the same happen anywhere in Europe? ANSWER THIS SPECIFIC QUESTION.

But it gets worse. The stupidly way this law is applied is what is seeing hundreds and even thousands of men rotting in jail. A wife wants to take away the shamba, she shouts 'rape', eti you defiled a 7-year old. MANDATORY JAIL-TERM OF LIFE. You have a dispute with a female business colleague, rape! And then you wonder why we are killing them like rats.

Kenyan courts have also been implementing the law with a very little threshold of evidence. Often it's the man's word against that of a coached 10-year old. Guess what, the 10-year old is believed. LIFE. Years later, after the man has lost everything and the girl is an adult, she realises she was misused and recants her evidence. Guess what again? The man cannot be released if he had exhausted his appeal options! What ferkery is this (several cases have come up this year alone, SEVERAL!)

Justice Chitembwe said yesterday many magistrates and judges are also cowed to pass unjust sentences because they fear the back-lash from activists and the press. He said he himself faced matusi when he realised a convict called Charo.

Njoki Ndungu once represented her matha against her fatha in court so we all know where she's coming from. But a country of 50 million should not be saddled with a bad law because one entitled bitch hates men.

Oh, and she's my (very) distant cousin so I should know...................
Click to expand...
@Field Marshal that's one helluva argument which can only be rebutted by a devil's advocate....
 
Field Marshal said:
In the US, where different 'races' use different classes of drugs, the same nonsense has been used to jail more Blacks than whites. Unapata ukishikwa na heroine (for example) unaenda ndani for 3 years because it's used mostly by caucasians, lakini ukishikwa na brown sugar which is used more in Black areas unaenda ndani for 20.

PS: The drugs are used for illustration only.
Click to expand...
.....or the differentiation of crack and cocaine
 
Field Marshal said:
In the US, where different 'races' use different classes of drugs, the same nonsense has been used to jail more Blacks than whites. Unapata ukishikwa na heroine (for example) unaenda ndani for 3 years because it's used mostly by caucasians, lakini ukishikwa na brown sugar which is used more in Black areas unaenda ndani for 20.

PS: The drugs are used for illustration only.
Click to expand...
@Field Marshal,
Knowing how cruel, unreasonable and atrocious Sexual Offences Sentences can be, why do men (and women, mind you) still go ahead to commit them?
Sex is not food that if you don’t feed you will starve. The difference between Animals and Humans is that we have to control certain instincts at certain given times.
Look at yourself for instance. How come in all of your long life you have never had to defend yourself against a Sexual Offence yet you interacted with female at work and in all other places? You always had the opportunity. Fact. Didn’t you?

You knew and understood the consequences. If you can’t do the time don’t do the crime. People have to be responsible and not put themselves in danger of throwing their lives and what they have built with sweat and toil down the drain.
We can argue to and fro about these things till cows come home without ever finding a solution.
Personal responsibility should never be an option in this life.
 
bigDog said:
I don't have a problem with jailing pedophiles. My definition of a pedophile is of an older person exploiting a child sexually. I think you will agree with me that a 15 year old having consensual sexual relationship with another 15 year old is not exploitation. Heck, even 2 to 3 years difference is not much. If my 17 year old daughter has sex with a 19 year boy, do I get him jailed? How just is that?

You were trying to sell the sliperry slope fallacy above. It doesn't wash! We all were teens at some time and know how this stuff works. A child molester is pest that should be gotten rid off. Lakini criminalizing a teenager for doing what comes naturally is going too far.
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Well put,mate...

There's a young man (he was 20 then) from my ocha who was jailed for 15 years for sleeping with a 17.5 y.o.

They said it was rape,kid got locked up,the chic came out and said it wasn't rape and that she is the one who persuaded the young man,nobody gave half a fuvk.

The guy is still behind bars.
 
Tiiga Waana said:
What you are advocating for is simply not possible @Field Marshal.
This is because for any law to be effective and functional it has to be clear, unambiguous and certain. It is only such a law that is capable of sanctioning your liberty by a jail sentence or financial punishment by a fine or granting any of the myriads of injunctions.
The Age of Consent is such a law specifying at what age sex can be presumed consensual.

The problem with your piece is that you expect the law to accommodate individuals’ circumstances and situations. To understand that the Girl was only a year to this Age and that the Man was highly educated and skilled. You expect the law to compromise on its specifications. That’s impossible and won’t happen. Any law that is not specific, articulate and precise can be challenged as it will only create confusion.

What I can agree with you is that Judges don’t always have to give the maximum penalties for offences. That is the reason they have a wide discretion on the penalties they can give. Do remember also that Judges should act on the mitigation grounds given. That is where they can bring the human touch to the cold hand of criminal justice. After all sentencing should not only be about punishment but also about rehabilitation.

By the way, you are wrong in thinking that Sexual Offenders in the west are treated with kid gloves. To the contrary. Anyone charged with a sexual offence in UK faces insurmountable and difficulty life from then to the end of their earthly lives. They may get 3 years imprisonments but because they are on Sex Register they have to report to their local police station for life. If they change addresses they have to inform probation. They can’t travel abroad and they have to declare their convictions (Sexual Offences Act) in every job application. Of course they never ever get employed in any meaningful jobs ever after.
Click to expand...

Give me a case in UK where an 18 year old male was jailed for having consensual sex relationship with a 17 year old girl.

If you give me this case law madam, I will shut my mouth.
 
bigDog said:
Give me a case in UK where an 18 year old male was jailed for having consensual sex relationship with a 17 year old girl.

If you give me this case law madam, I will shut my mouth.
Click to expand...

@bigDog,
I thought I already made it clear that I am in full and unequivocal agreement with your sentiments.
I even went ahead to state that Kenyan Judges are failing by not exercising their discretion to adjudicate each and every case on its own peculiar facts and circumstances.

If I remember correctly I had an ax to grind with them for not giving a listening ear and an empathetic heart to mitigation presented to them.
At other times I think they are just lazy to write an original judgement and just goes straight to mandatory sentences.

Judges here are brave to interpret the law broadly and apply up to date realities of our times instead of archaic written-in-stone mandatory sentencing.

What I however think people presume is that you can get away with Sexual Offences in the West. This is not the case and it is no surprise that many people have committed suicide rather than live with the attendant life long sanctions of a conviction of sexual offence.
 
bigDog said:
I don't have a problem with jailing pedophiles. My definition of a pedophile is of an older person exploiting a child sexually. I think you will agree with me that a 15 year old having consensual sexual relationship with another 15 year old is not exploitation. Heck, even 2 to 3 years difference is not much. If my 17 year old daughter has sex with a 19 year boy, do I get him jailed? How just is that?

You were trying to sell the sliperry slope fallacy above. It doesn't wash! We all were teens at some time and know how this stuff works. A child molester is pest that should be gotten rid off. Lakini criminalizing a teenager for doing what comes naturally is going too far.
Click to expand...
I remember a boy who was 17, kept in remand until he was 18 then charged with defilement of a girl who was 16. Pains me to this day.
 
Tiiga Waana said:
@bigDog,
I thought I already made it clear that I am in full and unequivocal agreement with your sentiments.
I even went ahead to state that Kenyan Judges are failing by not exercising their discretion to adjudicate each and every case on its own peculiar facts and circumstances.

If I remember correctly I had an ax to grind with them for not giving a listening ear and an empathetic heart to mitigation presented to them.
At other times I think they are just lazy to write an original judgement and just goes straight to mandatory sentences.

Judges here are brave to interpret the law broadly and apply up to date realities of our times instead of archaic written-in-stone mandatory sentencing.

What I however think people presume is that you can get away with Sexual Offences in the West. This is not the case and it is no surprise that many people have committed suicide rather than live with the attendant life long sanctions of a conviction of sexual offence.
Click to expand...

I think we agree that the sexual offenses act should not be interpreted as strictly as you alluded to. It's never a clear cut, black and white thing madam.

I hope you understand that I absolutely abhor child abuse. It doesn't matter the gender.

However, the sexual offences act as it is discriminates against teenage boys.
 
Karma_mama said:
To me a child is anyone under 18. Male or female.

This is regardless of how they develop physically.

These days the physical development seems to be come earlier and earlier.

I know of a 13 year old who has no problem getting into clubs. At a glance she passes for a 25 year old.
But whichever way you look at it she is a child and should not be taken advantage of.
As it stands you cannot enter into a contract with a minor, for a reason.
It is a fact that the brain is still undergoing important development way into the 20s.
I fail to see the benefits of engagement in sexual activity at an age earlier than 18.
We have to teach both girls and boys to respect the law.
We should not start bending it and making excuses.
Its illegal for ANYONE to engage in sexual activity with a minor, even one that is a day short of 18... End of... No ifs or buts
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I don't support or even condone paedophilia or underage sex but the sentences in Kenya are punitive, actually excessive. Unless it was rape it should not exceed 20yrs ,renember you are wasting a full productive life.
Now imagine the teacher who was caught with a sudent is sentenced for a long term and yet the student was 22yrs.
 
Giggz said:
I don't support or even condone paedophilia or underage sex but the sentences in Kenya are punitive, actually excessive. Unless it was rape it should not exceed 20yrs ,renember you are wasting a full productive life.
Now imagine the teacher who was caught with a sudent is sentenced for a long term and yet the student was 22yrs.
Click to expand...

The lazy magistrates put statutory rape for any girl under 18. Do those magistrates have sons? Why?
 
Giggz said:
I don't support or even condone paedophilia or underage sex but the sentences in Kenya are punitive, actually excessive. Unless it was rape it should not exceed 20yrs ,renember you are wasting a full productive life.
Now imagine the teacher who was caught with a sudent is sentenced for a long term and yet the student was 22yrs.
Click to expand...
Pamba I think posted the section for that one. Poor dude is supposed to be sentenced FOR AT LEAST 10 YEARS FOR SLEEPING WITH A MATURE WOMAN with consent.

Totally insane.
 
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