Assuming I Believed
- Thread starter It's Me Scumbag
- Start date
Burner
Elder Lister
@Liberty after you are done with @It's Me Scumbag you can help me understand something. since we are headed towards Easter, what exactly was Jesus' sacrifice? He was alive, then dead, then alive again. What changed?
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kijanamrefu
Elder Lister
Is it really a sacrifice if you know you're gonna come back in a new and improved package? Is that not a graduation?
Burner
Elder Lister
Exactly. How is it a sacrifice if you are get back the exact thing you gave up if you gave up anything at all? Considering Jesus is God, wasnt he God before and the same after the crucifixion?
Liberty
Elder Lister
Obviously all the pain and suffering that Jesus had to endure before his death, and it showed, as we can see from the Gospels when Jesus says to his disciples that he is “deeply grieved, even to death” (Matt 26:38).
Luke 22:42-44
‘Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet, not my will but yours be done.’ Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and gave him strength. In his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
We can see from the quote above that Jesus really wasn’t looking forward to this, despite knowing its purpose. He even needed an angel to come to physically come to him to give him the strength to go on with this plan! Suggesting that this was a walk in the park for Jesus and making light of what he was about to go through is just ignorance of the reality of the situation. There’s also a significant detail in the Luke passage above which gives us a medical insight into what Jesus was going through in these moments: the sweat of blood.
This in itself shows just how much stress Jesus was under in the lead up to his execution to cause such a thing to happen. Modern day research also shows that this condition still manifests in people awaiting execution today.
So even if you knew that you would be resurrected in a few days time, I am sure that you wouldn’t really want to go through a Roman flogging and crucifixion – some of the most brutal ways to be tortured and executed in human history!
So what did Jesus sacrifice if he only lost his life temporarily?
Everything about his pre-incarnate self.
Where once a spirit, now a glorified body.
Where once only divine, now fully God and fully man.
The incarnation had eternal consequences for the Godhead.
Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t just about dying, it was about taking on our humanity eternally. The eternal God now united forever with humanity. Jesus wasn’t only the “visible image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15) whilst on earth, no; he is forever that now. Like John says in his opening chapter about the coming of the Word into our world: he became flesh (John 1:14) and has stayed that way. This is the “mystery of Godliness” (as some translations have it) that Paul talks about in 1 Tim 3:16, where he states that Jesus was “revealed” or “manifested in flesh” and later taken up in glory.
Look at when Jesus was taken up into heaven in Acts 1:11, the angels say to the disciples watching that they will see Jesus “come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven” – ie., bodily. But we know from the accounts in the Gospels that Jesus’ body was no longer exactly the same as ours, though he appeared solid and human, he could still appear inside locked rooms (Jn 20:19), disguise himself and then disappear again (Luke 24:30-31).
We can see some glimpses of this in the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus. After his death and resurrection, Jesus was raised bodily (and this is what our faith hinges on – 1 Cor 15:14), and was still recognizable by those who knew him. Paul states that he was seen by “five hundred” of his followers after he was raised (1 Cor 15:5-8) as well as the Twelve and Paul himself, and they all knew him. Jesus didn’t just put on a human skin mask for 30 years or so and then shed it once his job was done. No, he was “flesh and bones”, not a spirit or ghost, though flesh in a new way (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:50).
This is what Paul goes into some detail about in his epistles: the resurrection and the bodies we will inherit through that. Though we may still look human and recognizable, our old bodies will be transformed into a glorious one like the one Jesus received.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
What dies a physical body, is raised a spiritual one; though “spiritual” doesn’t necessarily mean some ethereal floaty mist-like substance, otherwise the disciples wouldn’t have been able to interact with Jesus after his death, nor would he have been able to cook and eat fish with them (Jn 21:9-14). The resurrected bodies we will get are the same type that Jesus now has; he will transform us into the same image of his own body (Philippians 3:21) so that “we will also bear the image of the man of heaven” (1 Corinthians 15:49).
The resurrection is not just about our bodies changing, but about them being changed into the same likeness that Jesus now has!
Jesus is the mediator between God and man because he became man, but not only that, he has stayed a man so that he will forever be our mediator, on our level, but also on the level of God (1 Timothy 2:5). He is the “same yesterday and today and forever” (Heb 13:8) which is why in Revelation 22:4 it tells us that when we are finally there with him in glory, we will “see his face” (cf. 1 Cor 13:12). Jesus the visible image of God for all eternity now.
So what did Jesus sacrifice for us? Everything.
Burner
Elder Lister
Padre, some of the issues you raise here bring up conflicts pertaining to God's temporal characteristics. So if im misunderstanding please correct me.
"Where once a spirit, now a glorified body.
Where once only divine, now fully God and fully man.
The incarnation had eternal consequences for the Godhead."
Does this mean that God had none of these things prior to the crucifixion?
Or did he have them but not have them at the same time? A sort of Schroedinger's god if you will.
Because if he did have them before as you quoted "He is the “same yesterday and today and forever” (Heb 13:8)" then nothing has changed.
If the attributes were there before, (arguably during) and after the crucifixion, there has been zero change.
If he didnt have them before, this raises other issues about the eternal nature of the trinity. The trinity would not be as it is before the crucifixion. And even if it did, doesnt that still hark back the problem pointed out previously.
Not only that, what does this "sacrifice" entail for anyone who died prior to his crucifixion? If they still received salvation regardless, what would be point of the crucifixion since it clearly wouldnt be a requirement for salvation?
Aviator
Elder Lister
It takes more than confessing to stealing a bible to become one of the chosen few. I suggest you read this article.
Who are the 144,000 and what is their purpose
Ever since John wrote the book of Revelation, Bible students have had questions about who are they, what is their purpose, and how will they be recognized?
wake-up.org
It's Me Scumbag
Elder Lister
Nostradumbass
Lister
If God is allknowing ,why did he create Lucifer knowing that he (Lucifer) was gonna fuck up everything?
@Aviator ni mtu ana uliza swali ya kanisa?
Liberty
Elder Lister
Sin is a sin.
Yes.
Yes. After confessions why not?
ii thread banae. Kuna so many contradiction no wonder everyone filters it's contents to suit his/er narrative
Liberty
Elder Lister
My dear the bible was written by human beings like you and I, inspired by the holy Spirit. The reasons you will find The Gospel according to Luke, or Mark, or Matthew. Each one wrote according to the way he understood the teaching of Jesus at that time, but they convey the same message and meaning. For example Supu, did Jesus laugh? Did He sleep? and nothing about it is written in the bible. But since He was "human', we cannot deny that he at least smiled or laughed. Remember that not everything was written in the bible and if it were, then these books could not fit the world. It also depends on which version of the Bible you have. There are sooo many versions out there so you must be very careful on which you choose to read,
kijanamrefu
Elder Lister
Padre, which one did God cosign?
Liberty
Elder Lister
This question is based upon flawed reasoning, since it assumes that we are in a position to critique God. Many who refuse to look into what the Bible says on the subject simply decide that God seriously erred in this area, so we should not put our trust in Him.
When God created the world, we are told that God examined it and declared that it was good (Genesis 1:31). This means that even the angelic world did not have evil angels or demons in it at that time. But by the time of Genesis chapter three, we find that Satan, in the form of a serpent, was tempting Eve to sin. Therefore, sometime between the events of Genesis chapter one and Genesis chapter three, there must have been a rebellion in the angelic world, with many angels turning against God and becoming evil. This rebellion was led by Satan himself.
Since Lucifer had been the model of perfection, what sort of sin led to his fall? His heart became proud because of his incredible beauty. Lucifer allowed his perfection to be the cause of his corruption.
Mawaya
Elder Lister
God is supposed to be all knowing and his powers can't be comparable to those of humans.
When creating Satan, God must have known he had an evil streak so your logic can't stand.
Burner
Elder Lister
Is the assertion that God created angels with the knowledge of good & evil? Because until the fall of man in chapter 3, everything would have been good. As the greatest good that could exist since that is all he can and did create as evidenced at the end of every other verse with him creating something and seeing it was good.
If something led to satan's rebellion then it can be no fault of his. He was specifically created to fall.