WHO Guidelines for the Vaccine Passport

[Riva]

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People should accept the consequences of their personal choices. Severe symptoms and death are potential consequences of getting Covid. Keeping safe is and should remain a personal choice.
otherwise, maybe they should also develop a passport pegged on mental health for Kenyans. I think it’s also becoming a pandemic by its own right, given the number of suicides and homicides being reported.

 

[Riva]

Freedoms? Does this include freedom to infect other people? I read somewhere that the reason they were able to make the covid vaccine so quickly is beacause there was already research done on SARSfrom previous pandemics .
I understand where you are coming from though, even having been injected you can still carry the disease and you can still infect people

this has been exactly my point. That at this point, given the vaccine does not prevent infections and transmission, it should not be a basis for curtailing any freedoms. It should not be mandatory until it is proven to end transmission and prevent infection.

And no freedom does not include the freedom to infect others. It is the freedom of choice to choose to be injected even though the vax does not prevent transmission and infection.

 

[Riva]

Where do your freedom end and another's start.

My freedom ends At the point where the vax can confer sterilizing immunity I.e prevent transmission and infection and also be tested and proven to be without long term adverse effects.
At that point it becomes clear that those not injected actually expose others to disease.

 

[Burner]

People should accept the consequences of their personal choices. Severe symptoms and death are potential consequences of getting Covid. Keeping safe is and should remain a personal choice.
otherwise, maybe they should also develop a passport pegged on mental health for Kenyans. I think it’s also becoming a pandemic by its own right, given the number of suicides and homicides being reported.

People are in denial about the consequences until they catch up with them. You will find many facebook/twitter screenshots of people trash talking the vaccine then its a post of how they have been diagnosed with the rona, thank you for your support please keep praying for me, and subsequently a post by a family member saying the original poster has died.
Keeping safe is admirable, but its difficult depending on your circimstances. Traveling in a full matatu or even in your workplace there's still a possibility of you getting infected despite your best efforts.

Mental health is not contagious. The triggers depression and suicidal thoughts for it vary from person to person.

 

[Burner]

My freedom ends At the point where the vax can confer sterilizing immunity I.e prevent transmission and infection and also be tested and proven to be without long term adverse effects.
At that point it becomes clear that those not injected actually expose others to disease.

I disagree. Your freedom ends where you want to be interacting with a majority of people who have some measure of defence against the disease and you dont. If you walk into a room of 99 people whom have been vaccinated and you havent, you are the greater risk to all. Even if you dont have the disease and one of the vaccinated is unknowingly infected, you are still the one most likely to have severe effects than the other 99.
In order to protect the you, the 1% in this case, from very severe or deadly consequences, curtailing your freedom to interact with the 99% is the prudent step.

 

[Riva]

I disagree. Your freedom ends where you want to be interacting with a majority of people who have some measure of defence against the disease and you dont. If you walk into a room of 99 people whom have been vaccinated and you havent, you are the greater risk to all. Even if you dont have the disease and one of the vaccinated is unknowingly infected, you are still the one most likely to have severe effects than the other 99.
In order to protect the you, the 1% in this case, from very severe or deadly consequences, curtailing your freedom to interact with the 99% is the prudent step.

And this is the thing, why do I need protection if I am able to see what the ravages of Covid can do. It is important to let people take responsibility for their actions or inactions. Natural selection always takes it course.

Otherwise, society become a kid and the government (a group of men with personal interests) becomes the father telling everyone how to make personal life decisions.

History says giving up your freedoms to a few men for anything is an almost irreversible thing that should never be entertained.

Like for example right now we gave up the freedom to move around at night. Would you really argue, at this point in time, that giving up that freedom is doing anything to stem infection or that there is a clear link between the infections and the curfew?

 

[Burner]

And this is the thing, why do I need protection if I am able to see what the ravages of Covid can do. It is important to let people take responsibility for their actions or inactions. Natural selection always takes it course.

Otherwise, society become a kid and the government (a group of men with personal interests) becomes the father telling everyone how to make personal life decisions.

History says giving up your freedoms to a few men for anything is an almost irreversible thing that should never be entertained.

Like for example right now we gave up the freedom to move around at night. Would you really argue, at this point in time, that giving up that freedom is doing anything to stem infection or that there is a clear link between the infections and the curfew?

For one, because you are unable to obviously tell if someone is infected or not and there is only so much you can personally do to prevent infection. You getting sick and taking up valuable resources in an ICU or ward bed for 2 month and denying a person in bad shape from a road accident is something preventable. Limiting some of your freedoms is a measure that needs to be taken.

Secondly, government is a father figure. And so is society at large. Your personal choices and freedoms are only what we as a society and consequently govt allow you to have and usually contribute to the general wellbeing on society as a whole. Its the reason why we have laws prohibiting you from doing some things i.e limitation on freedoms.
While i think there is a line at whicb freedoms should not be curtailed, i dont think we have crossed it as far as the covid certificates are concerned.

Third, i believe there is a correlation between limitstoon of movements and curfew and infection rates. The cases that come to mind are Singapore and New Zealand and this was prior to vaccine rollouts.
Our govt is just shit at the execution of such things.

 

[Luther12]

People die everyday from anything. I could have died on Saturday in a car crash if the guy had hit me worse than he actually did. Should we give up our freedoms for fear of death….while that’s the ultimate destination

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You have the freedom to swing your arm.
But that freedom ends where my nose begins.

 

[Luther12]

Covid vaccines are not preventing infection or transmission. They are preventing severe symptoms for people who catch the flu. This means that everyone can catch or transmit the flu regardless of vaccination status. However, if they are vaccinated they are less likely to have severe symptoms.

Which is precisely how all vaccines work.

 

[Luther12]

even having been injected you can still carry the disease and you can still infect people

This is not unique to covid.
Don't we have vaccinated TB patients in our hospitals, for instance?

 

[Luther12]

People should accept the consequences of their personal choices.

Not when such choices affect the society.

 

[Mututho Wa KK]

Sincerely speaking

 

[Luther12]

Yesterday we buried a guy who died of COVID. This despite calls for him to get vaccinated since March.
The other day four patients passed on within minutes of one another as plans were being made to secure them ICU beds.

 

[Riva]

You have the freedom to swing your arm.
But that freedom ends where my nose begins.

Hi @Luther12
Maybe it’d be nice to hear from you at more detail, from your understanding of the current vaccines (not generally all vaccines but this particular one); what is its specific benefit in terms of prevention of transmission and prevention of infection (I.e what’s it’s benefit to community)
1. Is it true that it’s most important benefit is for those who get it to have less severe symptoms?
2. Is it true that you can get the flu even after the shot? Are you seeing in your experience cases of people getting infected even after the shot? Is there a Kenyan database with records of the infections in terms of whether the patients had the shot or not?
3. If you get the flu after the shot, is it true that you can pass along the flu and actually get someone else sick?
4. Is there a local study on the pharmacokinetics of the shot over time (since they started giving them in Ke)? If such a study can be done, which organization in the health sector would perform such a study?
5. Lastly, what determines the severity of the flu and how can one naturally mitigate?

kindly, if you have the opportunity be a bit detailed in your responses with some references if you have them, I’m currently very fascinated with reading about medical studies.

 

[Ngimanene na Muchere]

We don`t care, we will not wear a face nappy, we will not be castrated!!!!

 

[Mfalme]

@Riva understand this, nobody has forced you to do anything OK? If you don't want the jab, no one is coming chasing after you to get vaccinated.

However, other establishments, offices, companies etc have the right to set up their own rules just like you have the right to remain unvaccinated. You simply just have to avoid the places that require vaccination and you're good to go. Having understood this, why is there need to argue?

 

[Riva]

@Riva understand this, nobody has forced you to do anything OK? If you don't want the jab, no one is coming chasing after you to get vaccinated.

However, other establishments, offices, companies etc have the right to set up their own rules just like you have the right to remain unvaccinated. You simply just have to avoid the places that require vaccination and you're good to go. Having understood this, why is there need to argue?

What is life without debate? You or me can’t always be right, but we can agree to disagree.

 

[Missdee]

This is not unique to covid.
Don't we have vaccinated TB patients in our hospitals, for instance?

I know it's not, chicken pox too works the same

 

[Riva]

I know it's not, chicken pox too works the same

I read about something called sterilizing immunity. It’s where once you get a disease and form antibodies the disease cannot replicate within your body and hence you can’t be infected once immunized.

In the example of chicken pox, once you get it for the first time your body is able to produce sterilizing antibodies that prevent any future infections. Hence, youre safe from chicken pox for life.

Now what I’m yet to research on is the question of whether “after building up sterilizing antibodies (I.e you can’t get infected), can you transmit?” For example, if you already got chicken pox and you can’t get chicken pox infection again coz of your sterilizing antibodies, if you encounter the chicken pox ‘virus’ can you transmit?

 

[Riva]

This is not unique to covid.
Don't we have vaccinated TB patients in our hospitals, for instance?

I was checking out the TB vaccination and saw it is the BCG vaccine given to kids when very young.
Maybe I can ask, do the TB patients you encounter have underlying diseases that render their BCG vax ineffective e.g HIV which is associated with higher cases of TB - coz it lowers your general immunity.
Or do you encounter patients without underlying conditions catching TB.