Slaves of Culture

mzeiya

Elder Lister
You surprise me young man. You want to say that all this time you didn't know I deliberately adopt an abrasive style here? All the insults we exchange with my friend @Aviator, for example, did it start yesterday?

You see, you used to accommodate my style because it was just old Guka gukaing, but now you have become a fundamentalist little shit 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 you find them objectionable...
Your abrasive style is welcome. Diversity is strength, right?

However, it has become quite tiring to be honest coz insults require no critical thinking, a quality lacking greatly in the Kenyan society.
It's for the exact same reason that I've told these guys this just now 👇🏾
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I expect sharp minds like yours to debate clearly with thought provoking views. For instance, tell us how our great ancestors were apes and maybe, some will just believe the theory of evolution.

La sivyo, tutashinda hapa tukipiga kelele kama kuku za kienyeji asubuhi.
 

Aviator

Elder Lister
Answer question 1 here:

Answered above.

the maternal uncle was held in great regard
Is that the same today? How many maternal uncles (bros to our wives) do we avoid today since the best they do when you meet is ask for kanuthu?

The maternal uncle was taken to be a safeguard of his sister and her children.
Again, that's not the case today.
Some of these are the ones chasing their sisters away from their parents' inherited land.

Of course, looking at many of these things today, some may not make much practical sense. But as long as they do no harm, like eating turkey during Thanksgiving, I don't see why we should not uphold them.
So, what harm is there if my son is circumcised under the church where carefully selected professionals train them on all the IMPORTANT matters (and more than) they would learn from kiama while leaving those that are of absolutely no benefit to their lives?
 
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Field Marshal

Elder Lister
Your abrasive style is welcome. Diversity is strength, right?

However, it has become quite tiring to be honest coz insults require no critical thinking, a quality lacking greatly in the Kenyan society.
It's for the exact same reason that I've told these guys this just now 👇🏾
View attachment 81146
I expect sharp minds like yours to debate clearly with thought provoking views. For instance, tell us how our great ancestors were apes and maybe, some will just believe the theory of evolution.

La sivyo, tutashinda hapa tukipiga kelele kama kuku za kienyeji asubuhi.
I can see where you are coming from. But if you just stepped down from your high horse, you'd realize that I still make my points like I always have; sprinkled with odium. I didn't coin the term 'bonobo' to describe some of us when I was in my best behaviour, did I?

You on the other hand is changing. I can quote at least 3 occasions that you have been irritated by listers who make fun of the old white ghost god in the sky. That never used to happen with the old, witty and unflappable Mzeiya.

It is not me, old Guka, who has changed. For that, look in the mirror lad. And halt the slide into that rabbithole, for God's sake (pun fully intended).
 

mzeiya

Elder Lister
I can see where you are coming from. But if you just stepped down from your high horse, you'd realize that I still make my points like I always have; sprinkled with odium. I didn't coin the term 'bonobo' to describe some of us when I was in my best behaviour, did I?

You on the other hand is changing. I can quote at least 3 occasions that you have been irritated by listers who make fun of the old white ghost god in the sky. That never used to happen with the old, witty and unflappable Mzeiya.

It is not me, old Guka, who has changed. For that, look in the mirror lad. And halt the slide into that rabbithole, for God's sake (pun fully intended).
If I've changed, then well and good coz really, kindness is taken as bullshait loads of time and calling a spade for what it is should be appreciated.
Either way, your fedback is much appreciated.
 

bigDog

Elder Lister
Let me try to address some of the issues you have raised.

Every society in the world has rites of passage for it's young. In the West, these tend to follow the education calenders. Thus every American high school graduate will attend a prom dance WITH A PARTNER. Jews have their bar mitzvahs. Etc.

Rites of passage do not mean that life will end if they are not marked. They are not a matter of life and death but more about communal cohesion and order.

That's why in fact other rites of passage such as weddings and even funerals are held. They mark the end of one stage of life to the next. Surely @Aviator, you would still be able to sire children with your wife even if you didn't have a wedding? Why then did you hold the expensive event? To tell the world that you and her had gone to the next level, that's what.

As @bigDog, who has still not sent me booze, said, the Gikuyu rite of circumcision was meant to be more that the mutilation of the penis. Remember back then there was no pornhub, for example, and the young still had to be taught about sex and sexuality. Or about their responsibilities as young adults. This happened during or after circumcision.

I notice you take exception to the choice of the maternal uncle as a key participant in the irua. Surely, surely my brother you are better than this.

The maternal uncle was taken to be a safeguard of his sister and her children. If for example they were chased from their matrimonial home, it was the uncle who would show them where to stay until the woman remarried. He would even be expected to give up part of his land for this.

For this and many reasons, the maternal uncle was held in great regard. You surely know the saying "mama gwithua mukonyo"?

Of course, looking at many of these things today, some may not make much practical sense. But as long as they do no harm, like eating turkey during Thanksgiving, I don't see why we should not uphold them.

I for one will not ditch irua to go embrace stupid beberu traditions like Valentine's and Halloween. I will take my mpango kids, Kiiyo and K Jr to the elders for the cut after they have sought permission from their uncle. I will build them Simbas and tell they are no longer boys.

And I'll tell them to be proud of their great Gikuyu culture and history of their people.

Then I'll warn them that if they ever bring a boy home eti sijui nini nini, I'll shoot them dead and then hand myself to the police.

Ni hayo tuu kwa Sasa.
You are on point on the culture bit. That bit about uncle we will discuss once you acknowledge rūhīa.
 

mzeiya

Elder Lister
(y)(y)(y)(y) Don't get me wrong. You remain one of the GOATS here. You sir are much loved and appreciated.
Quick one mkubwa. I think my supposed 'fundamentalism' has to do with brief rejoinders, usually Biblical that I use in threads as applicable and that's because I believe in people speaking their truth. Not at all meant to be preachy.
 

Aviator

Elder Lister
I bet they don't teach gītīo, wīhokeku, ūmenyo, ūmīrīru, ūigīrīri, ūthurīri, kīo, kīoneki, ūūgī/waara etc.
Is that word a typo?
Or you surely believe they don't teach those values?
I will be overseeing a counselor talking to the boys in the course of the week on the topic Responsibility: Choices and Consequences. I guess that's the equivalent of Ūigìrìrìki that you bet they don't teach, right?
So, kindly stop hating. Seek to understand what our children learn during the church-sponsored circumcision. There more to it than catechism.
 

bigDog

Elder Lister
1. If I did it like Jews on 8th day, that would be making it cultural, which I insist it isn't. Why didn't I do it at birth? Because it wasn't necessary. But should my child have developed a condition requiring it then, I would have had it done. Why am I doing it now? Because I want my son to fit with the rest of the boys in secondary school.
2. You tell me why you (and the kiama-kia-ma) don't wait for yours to be that age of young warriors. For me, the timing has nothing to do with making them potential warriors.
3. Still, that doesn't answer the question why the uncle is preferred and not anyone else, like the priest or headteacher.
4. A well-behaved child will need less supervision irrespective of whatever cultural angle they chose to take. Responsibility and culture are not synonyms. Even Christianity requires responsibility from everyone, not just the young adults.
1. You are doing the 'surgery' so that your boy can 'fit in'. According to the Oxford dictionary culture is " the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society"

Are you retracting your position that
'circumcision is just a surgical procedure'?

2. Why do you circmcize a 12 year old who is not yet a teenager? Remember what I said above about kīrīra. What can they understand about coming to maturity? Why do you do things for the sake of it?

3. For the umpteenth time, you don't have to get your bro in law, any other nominated mentor is OK.

4. A well behave child comes from a well behaved culture. Well behaved cultures are made from well behaved families. Well behaved families come from good family leadership. Don't plant weeds and expect wheat.
 

bigDog

Elder Lister
Is that word a typo?
Or you surely believe they don't teach those values?
I will be overseeing a counselor talking to the boys in the course of the week on the topic Responsibility: Choices and Consequences. I guess that's the equivalent of Ūigìrìrìki that you bet they don't teach, right?
So, kindly stop hating. Seek to understand what our children learn during the church-sponsored circumcision. There more to it than catechism.
I don't think your church is misleading our young boys. I think that you are giving the best that you can. I appreciate when your boys are educated about drugs and illicit sex. These are issues that we could work on together because we need a better future.

But, are you guys willing to work with us without insults?
 

Aviator

Elder Lister
1. You are doing the 'surgery' so that your boy can 'fit in'. According to the Oxford dictionary culture is " the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society"

Are you retracting your position that
'circumcision is just a surgical procedure'?
There's no contradiction here. It's just a matter of appropriate time, and that has nothing to do with maturity or cultural requirements. Fitting in high school is not a cultural issue. Just like showering or being neat.

2. Why do you circmcize a 12 year old who is not yet a teenager? Remember what I said above about kīrīra. What can they understand about coming to maturity? Why do you do things for the sake of it?
What is kìrìra? Remember am not circumcising so that the kid becomes an adult. I take age 12 coz that's when my son has finished primary school. Actually it's almost 13.
My equivalent of kìrìra is mentorship,and this is a continuous process from age 3 to infinity.

3. For the umpteenth time, you don't have to get your bro in law, any other nominated mentor is OK.
I thought my son's uncle is my brother in law. Or what am I not getting?
And you are the one who advised that I should seek to understand why it important to seek uncle's consent. Can we say that this is settled that the consent from uncle can be safely ignored?

4. A well behave child comes from a well behaved culture. Well behaved cultures are made from well behaved families. Well behaved families come from good family leadership. Don't plant weeds and expect wheat.
The church has been very instrumental in instilling discipline in children and adults alike. Since the older age group would only teach my child how to smoke and remove soot, the church remains my preferred option.
 

bigDog

Elder Lister
There's no contradiction here. It's just a matter of appropriate time, and that has nothing to do with maturity or cultural requirements. Fitting in high school is not a cultural issue. Just like showering or being neat.


What is kìrìra? Remember am not circumcising so that the kid becomes an adult. I take age 12 coz that's when my son has finished primary school. Actually it's almost 13.
My equivalent of kìrìra is mentorship,and this is a continuous process from age 3 to infinity.


I thought my son's uncle is my brother in law. Or what am I not getting?
And you are the one who advised that I should seek to understand why it important to seek uncle's consent. Can we say that this is settled that the consent from uncle can be safely ignored?


The church has been very instrumental in instilling discipline in children and adults alike. Since the older age group would only teach my child how to smoke and remove soot, the church remains my preferred option.
1. Unfortunately, you can't bend culture. There are specific agesets that are supposed to be circumsized at any given time. When you preempt or delay it, you cause your child pain. All in the name of "dini".

2. We can't possibly discuss "kīrīra". Let it pass.

3. Uncle? See above

4. Your church is your culture. It's called Thogoto or Scottish church. It saved us from ourselves.
 

Aviator

Elder Lister
I assume We(Agīkūyū) are the demons. Why are we the demons?
No, we are not.
What I mean is that we have different objectives. It thus becomes impossible to work together. In any case, we don't have any deficit that we would need you to fill.
 

bigDog

Elder Lister
No, we are not.
What I mean is that we have different objectives. It thus becomes impossible to work together. In any case, we don't have any deficit that we would need you to fill.
So, why quote a verse that calls us demons?
 
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