Slaves of Culture

Field Marshal

Elder Lister
Even then, @Aviator pointed out a very serious problem of a gang subculture that's misusing this rite of passage. Unfortunately, this subculture is introducing teenagers to drugs and illicit sex. This is a cultural problem. It needs to be handled at the cultural level.
I've heard about it too. It should be nipped in the bud, as should be the church's involvement in cultural matters. PCEA has no business organising irua, none at all. They should concentrate on lying to their adherents about the old white ghost god in the sky who sees everything, loves you but will still burn you for eternity.

Don't even know how they came up with that bullshit....
 

bigDog

Elder Lister
I've heard about it too. It should be nipped in the bud, as should be the church's involvement in cultural matters. PCEA has no business organising irua, none at all. They should concentrate on lying to their adherents about the old white ghost god in the sky who sees everything, loves you but will still burn you for eternity.

Don't even know how they came up with that bullshit....
Those churches should understand that we have a shared interest of bringing up morally upright future generation. Yet they (especially PCEA that I didn't want to mention), keep smearing us.

I totally agree with you. They should stop medling in our affairs. I bet they don't teach gītīo, wīhokeku, ūmenyo, ūmīrīru, ūigīrīri, ūthurīri, kīo, kīoneki, ūūgī/waara etc.
 

mzeiya

Elder Lister
PCEA has no business organising irua, none at all. They should concentrate on lying to their adherents about the old white ghost god in the sky who sees everything, loves you but will still burn you for eternity.

Don't even know how they came up with that bullshit....
You're starting to sound like a broken record.
Just stick to your unbelief and let others be. Sheesh old man.
 

Aviator

Elder Lister
I needed to sit and answer this propaganda and hate campaign championed by some churches who treat Gīkūyū culture with disrespect! It's a smear campaign whose agenda I don't understand. I can't speak for Kīama kīa Ma but I will clarify the following (in order of importance):

1. Irua is not a simple cut. It's a rite of passage. After the ceremony, the young man is expected to respect himself, the parents and the society. In return, the parents and the society are expected to treat him with dignity and respect. He becomes a young adult.

2. The Kīama does not condone irua conducted on children's small 'cubes' (Simba). Irua is a communal ceremony and should be organized as such. Communal ceremonies allows proper care of the iniates and training of the boy child to become a man. Such ceremonies are entrusted to elders only.

There are urban settings where it's not possible to build such a child a detached house or even a separate room. Kīama accomodates this because culture must be dynamic.

3. Kūhura mbiro(teenage sex) and initiating children to drug abuse is immorality and unacceptable. A young man is expected to have very high standards of behaviour. Some churches have been using this to smear Kīama. It's unfortunate and sad!

4. Maternal Uncle's blessing is important for a number of reasons. One of the most important being that the uncle is expected to mentor the young man. You can't choose an irresponsible person for this role!

5. I'm dismayed that people don't seek to understand their culture. Who says that the western culture is better than ours?

@Aviator , aren't you a slave of Western culture?

@mzeiya, Kuna swali?
I will concentrate on point 4, 5 and the PS.
We have responsible people who can be role models and mentors to our sons, not just a random dude or worse still, a maternal uncle whose only bond with this son is that they share a father with the mother.
Did anyone say the western culture is better than ours? Do those people even circumcise?

To some of us, circumcision is a medical issue, not cultural. A 12 yr old won't magically transform into an adult simply because they have undergone the cut.
And don't tell me that circumcision goes with mentorship. I mentor my kids right from the time they can understand what am saying, which is around 3 yrs of age. And it continues even after they become adults and even have families.
 

mzeiya

Elder Lister
Kumbe I was right the first time? The butterfly has devolved into a pupae?
You might be right or wrong.

Look, if you were to critique religion sensibly and not through unnecessary insults, perhaps you'd win someone over to the dark side.

It's more productive to promote that which one believes in instead of bashing what you don't like, good sir.
 

Aviator

Elder Lister
Why don't you seek to know why the blessings of a maternal uncle were required?
Maternal Uncle's blessing is important for a number of reasons. One of the most important being that the uncle is expected to mentor the young man. You can't choose an irresponsible person for this role!
This answer isn't satisfactory as it implies that only a maternal uncle can mentor the young man. Why not a paternal uncle? Cousin? Friend? Priest?
Why specifically the maternal uncle?
I think that is what I don't know, and would want to know.
 

bigDog

Elder Lister
I will concentrate on point 4, 5 and the PS.
We have responsible people who can be role models and mentors to our sons, not just a random dude or worse still, a maternal uncle whose only bond with this son is that they share a father with the mother.
Did anyone say the western culture is better than ours? Do those people even circumcise?

To some of us, circumcision is a medical issue, not cultural. A 12 yr old won't magically transform into an adult simply because they have undergone the cut.
And don't tell me that circumcision goes with mentorship. I mentor my kids right from the time they can understand what am saying, which is around 3 yrs of age. And it continues even after they become adults and even have families.
Thanks for narrowing the disputed issues.

1. If circumcision is just a medical issue and not a cultural rite, why don't you copy the Jews? Have the surgery performed on the seventh day after birth. It's less costly, less painful and less involving. You could also let him remain a Kipii so that he makes those decisions once he hits 18. After all it's a medical issue!

2. Irua was only for mature boys(Kīhīī), it wasn't meant for younger boys (kahīī). A Kīhīī was big enough to be a junior worrier. What purpose does it serve to initiate a 12 year old? Why can't we let them be 14 or 15?

3. An uncle's consent is ceremonial. It's not mandatory. It's a "may have" not a "must have". Kīama won't insist on it but it recommends strongly.

4. Our culture encouraged less supervision and control of "Anake". A young man was given a code of conduct and rules of behaviour. This was coupled with co-parenting where any bad behaviour would be reported and swiftly punished. This requires innovation for our generation.
 

Aviator

Elder Lister
PCEA has no business organising irua, none at all.
What makes irua a preserve of the kiama ki ma? What of those who don't ascribe to their teachings or practices?
What of communities that don't normally practice circumcision?

You guys have always wanted to tie circumcision with culture, and that's not the case. It's simply a simple medical operation.
As regards mentorship, that can be done by anyone with the right qualities.
 

bigDog

Elder Lister
You're starting to sound like a broken record.
Just stick to your unbelief and let others be. Sheesh old man.
I have a problem with PCEA. They are condescending and disrespectful. If they don't believe in Irua why can't they keep out? The Catholics don't disrespect us, even Akorino don't disrespect us! Why do they feel so special? Which culture are they giving us?
 

bigDog

Elder Lister
What makes irua a preserve of the kiama ki ma? What of those who don't ascribe to their teachings or practices?
What of communities that don't normally practice circumcision?

You guys have always wanted to tie circumcision with culture, and that's not the case. It's simply a simple medical operation.
As regards mentorship, that can be done by anyone with the right qualities.
Answer question 1 here:

 

Field Marshal

Elder Lister
I will concentrate on point 4, 5 and the PS.
We have responsible people who can be role models and mentors to our sons, not just a random dude or worse still, a maternal uncle whose only bond with this son is that they share a father with the mother.
Did anyone say the western culture is better than ours? Do those people even circumcise?

To some of us, circumcision is a medical issue, not cultural. A 12 yr old won't magically transform into an adult simply because they have undergone the cut.
And don't tell me that circumcision goes with mentorship. I mentor my kids right from the time they can understand what am saying, which is around 3 yrs of age. And it continues even after they become adults and even have families.
Let me try to address some of the issues you have raised.

Every society in the world has rites of passage for it's young. In the West, these tend to follow the education calenders. Thus every American high school graduate will attend a prom dance WITH A PARTNER. Jews have their bar mitzvahs. Etc.

Rites of passage do not mean that life will end if they are not marked. They are not a matter of life and death but more about communal cohesion and order.

That's why in fact other rites of passage such as weddings and even funerals are held. They mark the end of one stage of life to the next. Surely @Aviator, you would still be able to sire children with your wife even if you didn't have a wedding? Why then did you hold the expensive event? To tell the world that you and her had gone to the next level, that's what.

As @bigDog, who has still not sent me booze, said, the Gikuyu rite of circumcision was meant to be more that the mutilation of the penis. Remember back then there was no pornhub, for example, and the young still had to be taught about sex and sexuality. Or about their responsibilities as young adults. This happened during or after circumcision.

I notice you take exception to the choice of the maternal uncle as a key participant in the irua. Surely, surely my brother you are better than this.

The maternal uncle was taken to be a safeguard of his sister and her children. If for example they were chased from their matrimonial home, it was the uncle who would show them where to stay until the woman remarried. He would even be expected to give up part of his land for this.

For this and many reasons, the maternal uncle was held in great regard. You surely know the saying "mama gwithua mukonyo"?

Of course, looking at many of these things today, some may not make much practical sense. But as long as they do no harm, like eating turkey during Thanksgiving, I don't see why we should not uphold them.

I for one will not ditch irua to go embrace stupid beberu traditions like Valentine's and Halloween. I will take my mpango kids, Kiiyo and K Jr to the elders for the cut after they have sought permission from their uncle. I will build them Simbas and tell they are no longer boys.

And I'll tell them to be proud of their great Gikuyu culture and history of their people.

Then I'll warn them that if they ever bring a boy home eti sijui nini nini, I'll shoot them dead and then hand myself to the police.

Ni hayo tuu kwa Sasa.
 

Aviator

Elder Lister
Thanks for narrowing the disputed issues.

1. If circumcision is just a medical issue and not a cultural rite, why don't you copy the Jews? Have the surgery performed on the seventh day after birth. It's less costly, less painful and less involving. You could also let him remain a Kipii so that he makes those decisions once he hits 18. After all it's a medical issue!

2. Irua was only for mature boys(Kīhīī), it wasn't meant for younger boys (kahīī). A Kīhīī was big enough to be a junior worrier. What purpose does it serve to initiate a 12 year old? Why can't we let them be 14 or 15?

3. An uncle's consent is ceremonial. It's not mandatory. It's a "may have" not a "must have". Kīama won't insist on it but it recommends strongly.

4. Our culture encouraged less supervision and control of "Anake". A young man was given a code of conduct and rules of behaviour. This was coupled with co-parenting where any bad behaviour would be reported and swiftly punished. This requires innovation for our generation.
1. If I did it like Jews on 8th day, that would be making it cultural, which I insist it isn't. Why didn't I do it at birth? Because it wasn't necessary. But should my child have developed a condition requiring it then, I would have had it done. Why am I doing it now? Because I want my son to fit with the rest of the boys in secondary school.
2. You tell me why you (and the kiama-kia-ma) don't wait for yours to be that age of young warriors. For me, the timing has nothing to do with making them potential warriors.
3. Still, that doesn't answer the question why the uncle is preferred and not anyone else, like the priest or headteacher.
4. A well-behaved child will need less supervision irrespective of whatever cultural angle they chose to take. Responsibility and culture are not synonyms. Even Christianity requires responsibility from everyone, not just the young adults.
 

mzeiya

Elder Lister
I have a problem with PCEA. They are condescending and disrespectful. If they don't believe in Irua why can't they keep out?
Hii yako seems personal mkubwa.
Is this the same PCEA that through 'Thogoto' has in a great way made you very eloquent in the King's language and continues to help many especially in the medical field?

You've actually highlighted on this very thread the downside of the cultural practises and sometimes, people are wary of such stuff. I know of a cousin who was introduced to alcohol during irua and the strife that arose in his family is immense.

I'm not a PCEA member, but I would understand why some people have chosen to have their sons initiated and mentored differently and that's just fine, IMHO.
 

mzeiya

Elder Lister
Let me try to address some of the issues you have raised.

Every society in the world has rites of passage for it's young. In the West, these tend to follow the education calenders. Thus every American high school graduate will attend a prom dance WITH A PARTNER. Jews have their bar mitzvahs. Etc.

Rites of passage do not mean that life will end if they are not marked. They are not a matter of life and death but more about communal cohesion and order.

That's why in fact other rites of passage such as weddings and even funerals are held. They mark the end of one stage of life to the next. Surely @Aviator, you would still be able to sire children with your wife even if you didn't have a wedding? Why then did you hold the expensive event? To tell the world that you and her had gone to the next level, that's what.

As @bigDog, who has still not sent me booze, said, the Gikuyu rite of circumcision was meant to be more that the mutilation of the penis. Remember back then there was no pornhub, for example, and the young still had to be taught about sex and sexuality. Or about their responsibilities as young adults. This happened during or after circumcision.

I notice you take exception to the choice of the maternal uncle as a key participant in the irua. Surely, surely my brother you are better than this.

The maternal uncle was taken to be a safeguard of his sister and her children. If for example they were chased from their matrimonial home, it was the uncle who would show them where to stay until the woman remarried. He would even be expected to give up part of his land for this.

For this and many reasons, the maternal uncle was held in great regard. You surely know the saying "mama gwithua mukonyo"?

Of course, looking at many of these things today, some may not make much practical sense. But as long as they do no harm, like eating turkey during Thanksgiving, I don't see why we should not uphold them.

I for one will not ditch irua to go embrace stupid beberu traditions like Valentine's and Halloween. I will take my mpango kids, Kiiyo and K Jr to the elders for the cut after they have sought permission from their uncle. I will build them Simbas and tell they are no longer boys.

And I'll tell them to be proud of their great Gikuyu culture and history of their people.

Then I'll warn them that if they ever bring a boy home eti sijui nini nini, I'll shoot them dead and then hand myself to the police.

Ni hayo tuu kwa Sasa.
Quite well put.
 

Field Marshal

Elder Lister
You might be right or wrong.

Look, if you were to critique religion sensibly and not through unnecessary insults, perhaps you'd win someone over to the dark side.

It's more productive to promote that which one believes in instead of bashing what you don't like, good sir.
You surprise me young man. You want to say that all this time you didn't know I deliberately adopt an abrasive style here? All the insults we exchange with my friend @Aviator, for example, did it start yesterday?

You see, you used to accommodate my style because it was just old Guka gukaing, but now you have become a fundamentalist little shit 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 you find them objectionable...
 
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